People playing ranked have been long-time complaining about otto, because they are just overpowered.
Recent updates made it worse.
Now Pros like Beasty and Aussie_Drongo are uploading videos, where they talk about HOW BROKEN this civ is.
Dude come on…
Otto is currently the best civ in Conqueror 1v1, 54.4% win and only one single matchup with is terrible.
That’s vs English.
10 out of 16 civs they even beat with 54-64% win ratio.
They for sure are waaaaaaaaay overtuned and multiple things about them HAVE TO BE adjusted timely.
If you take the English out of the vs matchups, Otto has an incredible 57% winratio against all the other civs in average.
That is completely INSANE
Look at the size of the sampling (2713).
There is even a warning in the site, “Warning: Some specific matchups have low sample size, keep that in mind when discussing these statistics.”
It’s 54,4% the second is 53,4%, I don’t think that difference is enough for “waaaaaaaaay overtuned”, even though the sample is too low to get conclusions.
The total matches in this path are 1.610.556 while the conqs matches are 57.650, less than 4% of the games, the game has to be balanced for all ranks, in general, it’s the third civilization.
In his videos, Beast always says that he’s not talking about Gold League, he talks about the pro over Conq.
But the numbers are not enough to make conclusions like the link that you sent where you just filter conq and then ottomans are the best.
It takes 2000 rez and 12 population worth of the counter unit (springald) to one shot a GB and it takes 1250 rez and 4 population worth of the GB to one shot a springald. Assuming you don’t get it free at the MIA. There is not enough population space for springalds to be effective in large numbers.
I think they need to increace the damage GB’s take from springalds and culvs. The problem is GB’s hard counter infantry and keeps and one/two shot springald and culvs. Whereas it takes like 3 culvs or 4 springald to oneshot one GB. Also, the GB’s are free from the MIA. Basically GB’s hard counter everything except cavalry. But Jans hard counter cavalry and heal the GB’s. And are free.
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Ottomans need a nerf now there units to op were are u devs not doinv ur job. Great bombard is insane need a nerf it is not fun or remove the thrn from the game.seige needs a limt increase population on seige
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They nerf too much the Springald and the Culverin in the last patch, I don’t think the GB is a problem, even mangonels can be a problem, the siege was better before last path, only the rams getting damage from army is enough.
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Exactly…
The ottoman faction was already VERY strong before the GB change and springald nerf.
Then they buffed their Imperial landmark which boosts production speed, also of free units of course.
By that point, Otto were near-broken.
The springald-nerf just made it more obvious, how deep the problem went already before that patch.
A unit that hardcounters the unit which is supposed to hardcounter it.
A stone which beats paper and stone.
And killing springalds is not even the GB job.
The GB job is to fight infantry and buildings.
That doesn’t make any sense… A GB should not oneshot a springald, unless 2 springalds could oneshot a GB.
Meanwhile Otto have the best and most cost-effective (stats/ressource) unique units in the game, which they get for free.
This doesn’t make any sense…
Most easy way to balance things are lowering great bombard area damage to 10 and they turn into a normal bombard.By the way french canons have area attack too why no body uses them?
-OR-
let them have the same hp with normal canons
Because the area attack from the french canons is locked behind a landmark and consists of an active ability that can be used once every 3 min or something, it’s a gimmick at this point.
Zhu Xi’s bombards are a better comparison and their area attacks got nerfed funny enough.
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Imo GB has to cost more pop-space while getting lower hp and has to receive a damage-malus against springs and culvs.
I think the infantry-wiping and heavy damage vs structures alone could be ok, as that is the job of the GB.
Probably it should also receive a small damage malus vs cavalry.
In Aoe3 GB work similarly, just pulverizing infantry and buildings, but doing a lot less damage to enemy artillery, a lot less than their base damage.
Culverines can snipe them ressource-effectively and pop-effectively.
And the GB don’t murder cav as bad.
Why zhu xi’s bombard dont put a impact like great bombard? Do they have a lower area damage?
One more option: nerf it’s creation speed from Mehmed Imperial Armory. The MIA is the meta landmark, so weakening it would weaken the Ottomans as a whole. One possibility would be to alter the vizier point system. For example, the max number of points could be reduced to 4 (with Istanbul Imperial Palace becoming +3 to remain at 7 Vizier points). Another option would be to lock the level 3 Vizier points behind the IIP, which would mean MIA would no longer be usable with the faster military school vizier point and the vizier point that enables free Janissaries/Knights. I suspect these two changes combined would really nerf the Ottomans hard, since they’d no longer be able to produce all 3 of their UU trio for free in a single game. And if they went for Mehmed Imperial Armory, Great Bombard production would effectively be slowed by not having one of their go-to vizier points. This would in essence be giving the MIA the same treatment the Aachen chapel received when the Meinwerk Palace was altered in the landmark rebalance patch: no direct changes, but a raised opportunity cost (which with my suggestions would be much more significant than the techs the Meinwerk Palace received).
I don’t really know how this would play out for their imperial age gameplay. They’d probably still want to go for their jannisary/Sipahi/Great Bombard trio, but would need to pay a lot more gold for it (either in Bombards or Jannisaries). This would naturally encourage going for trade more, which might make the Sea Gate Castle more viable. But I do think that the first priority in nerfing the Ottomans should be to bring their castle age landmarks more into balance with each other (preferably with a direct or indirect MIA nerf). Doing so will have ripple effects on all high-level Ottoman gameplay, which would then need to be observed before further changes.
It should also be noted that if some Vizier points are to be locked behind the IIP, then it may be worthwhile to shuffle the vizier points around a little (so some tier 3s vizier points may be swapped with tier 2 vizier points). But I don’t know Ottomans well enough to mess with this.
As I recall, part of the issue isn’t that the unique units are individually strong (though they are all good units), but that they’re strong together. His opinion (as I recall) was that if even just one of the three were nerfed that it may be enough.
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My argument is that they have TOO MUCH bonus damage against cavalry. If you compare their DPS with spearmen, against cavalry its obvious that there is an issue. The fact that they are range unit (and range unit arent supposed to counter cavalary), makes cavalary completely obsolete and break the rock-paper-scissor concept of the game.
I’m fine with janissaries countering cavalary, but they don’t need to anihilate them completely and so fast. Counters are meant to be winning at almost equal resources, not when the army size is 2-1, and not shred the whole cavalary in a few seconds. If you have x2 the resources in knights and charge into spears you will probably win, but not against janissaries.
I do agree that the problem is that janissaries + great bombard are too strong together, its because they remove pretty much all counter options with just 2 units. That’s why its a problem in my opinion. I think there should still be room for spearmen or for cavalary when playing with or against ottoman.
I think if janissaries had only +8 against cavalry instead of +16, they would STILL counter cavalary heavily. They could also remove the 50% bonus they get from ranged in exchange, would make janissaries less all or nothing unit. Great bombard could have less HP to make it easier for springalds.
They are supposed to be a counter to cavalry, that’s what their description says, Janissarie’s DPS is double of the Spearman, and also their cost.
They have the extra damage bonus against cavalry, but they also have less damage against other units compared to the others handcannoneers, that’s why they are a unique unit.
Look how easily you can counter Janissaries, you cannot always make only one unit and win the games.
Or should we nerf the man-at-arms because they are too strong against janissaries?
Springdale and Culverin have more range, movement speed and attack speed, you can micro your siege, and if the opponent want to destroy your siege with the Janissaries he is going to let the bombard without protection.
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The issue here is, that archers do 5 base damage + 5 additional damage against spears in Feudal age, because spears are light melee (!) infantry.
Whereas Jans are light ranged infantry, so the bonus doesn’t work here.
Spears receive 5+5 dmg, Jans receive 5*1,5 = 7,5 (7 or 8?) damage.
So, archers are less effective at quickly killing them than vs usual cav-killing units.
Plus it’s waaaay harder to micro against Jans, because they tend to stand in the backline and can receive the Mehter ranged armor bonus…
On the flipside Mangos do extra damage against Jans, because they are ranged units and so do Javelin throwers.
The 2nd problem is that their dps against regular units is WAY higher than the dps of spears.
Their base damage is a lot higher, so they are basically budget handcannoneers in Feudal/Castle, which can soft-counter men at arms.
They are really breaking the counter system…
The least which could be done, is including Jans into the bonus damage that archers do against light melee infantry as well as reducing Jannisary base damage and ramping up their bonus against Cav.
Ideally they should be functioning like Jans/Musks in aoe3, which deal ok ranged damage to all units in the game but low damage in melee mode with a huge bonus agaisnt Cavalry in melee mode.
If they Relic changed the Tag from light ranged infantry to light melee infantry, the problem might be solved already.
You are comparing different types of units
Spearman are feudal units that cost food and wood
Janissaries are castle units that cost food and gold
Let’s go to the math:
With the resources of one Janissary you can make two archers or two Spearman.
Two archer can cause 10 damage, let’s discount 1 from the Mehter aura, it will be a DPS of 5.54, Janissary has 90HP so it will take 16 seconds and a half to kill him.
Two Spearman have a total of 160HP, the DPS in that case is 6.15 for the archers because there is no shield, it will take 26 seconds for the archers to kill them both.
In any case, if you micro you can kill the units without losing the archers.
You should compare them with others handcannoneer.
About the man-at-arms, watch the video a post below.
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ITS JUST A JOKE THAT SAME RES SPRINGBOW CANT kill a bombard easy
Who said it was easy?
I would say fair before this last path that nerf the Springald.
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Do you think MAA are a good counter against Janissaries + Great Bombard ?
Exactly.
I am comparing 2 types of units.
Jans have HUGE base dmg, which makes them penetrate armor in age2.
They also have range and are a decent allrounder unit.
On top of demolishing cav.
The spears will never get in attackrange when trying to kill cav vs a good players.
The Jans will.
What is the elo you are playing 1v1 at, if I may ask?
I’ve recently played several team games against Ottomans using the Janissaries + Big Bombards combo, as well as a 2-hour 1vs1 game trying various combos, so I can say: NO, they’re not, big bombards crush the infantry, if they go alone:
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Infantry Only (SUICIDE): And the reason is that the Great Bombards themselves have a bonus that gives them +100 extra damage against infantry, (190+100=290), which makes one-shoot any heavy infantry of the game, except for the Abbasid Ghulam of post Imperial (IV) or OotD Elite Men-at-arms (IV), and the worst thing is that their minimum range is too good for their great size, and the fact that they take little time to position themselves and move makes it worse.
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Springalds only (SUICIDE): Suicide if they fight more than 3 great bombards. This is because most bombards do not attack in a line, but form parabolas or crescents, and if you do not attack the closest one correctly and attack the furthest one, or it escapes and the other two continue pointing at you, destroy it with 1 shot (Springald HP:150, Bombard Atk:190 siege).
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Cavalry Only (SUICIDE): They have too much HP to die in just a few hits, they need more than 15 hits to fall, at which point the Janissaries will finish off your cavalry, or else the rest of their army.
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Combination of units: The best solution is to use combined Cavalry, Heavy Infantry and Springalds with “Roller Shutter Triggers” technology. There’s a reason for this: “Great Bombards can only target one target at a time,” and so if they have to lock on to springals with 12 range, they end up chasing them, bringing them closer to your melee units. If the bombards try to shoot to your infantry, use the springalds and move the infantry in groups to avoid area damage, and cavalry cannot be oneshoted. The heavy infantry is to serve as a tank for the Janissaries’ fire, and the cavalry to keep the Janissaries concentrated on them, and the springalds to make more damage than another unit to them. You can also make Handcanonners to destroy the janissaries, remember that they receive 50% extra range damage.
– But that is just a hasty solution: In general is so cumberstone and require many Micro, in my opinion the Great Bombard still requires some balance, off course without make the unit inviable like one time was the tower elephant (And I remember those hard times), opinion which I already gave in several other comments (Minimum range, or HP, or population cap, etc).
- "Positioning Time".- Another Idea to balance them would be "Positioning Time", just like the Trebuchet of AoE2, I think that such a tremendous bombard should take more time to change mode between “static” and motile, perhaps 4 or 5 seconds, instead of immediately which makes them so lethal in retreating and attacking again, which should not be logical due to the tremendous size they have. The trebushet should also have a defect Similarly, it’s what made them fun in AoE2.
**OTHER NEWS: “SEASON 6, TIME EXTENDED” **
Well, I just found out that season 6 just ended in 1 week and 4 days (the 18th) and not on the 14th as I thought. This means that if any balance, we still have to wait for 10 days more. UPDATED: or even more if we consider that the event of the Woman Day if gonna last 14 days, nobody knows when the 7 Season will start.
– I GUESS: The devs realized that the fanbase plays AoE IV and ranked on Weekends, and if the season ends on the 14th (Thursday) we are left without weekend ranked. I already gave my suggestions to the Ottomans in another comment, so I won’t say more.
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