Balance suggestion for the British

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
1

Hi, guys. I feel the British lack a Skirmisher type unit for the late game… especially in treaty games

I do know they have access to Longbowmen, 13 Cherokee riflemen (infinite), Grenadiers and Jaegers through the salon with the mercenary contractor.

#1. Grenadiers are an overrated unit for the most part and take up 2 population. I don’t see people use these online

#2. Longbowmen take time to fire and aren’t as durable as regular skirmishers. However, they do have the same range as a falconet/horse artillery with Yeomen card.

#3. 13 Cherokee riflemen was previously 25 Cherokee riflemen. This is a small number of units and takes time for it to be shipped

#4. Jaegers can only be created from the Salon and I don’t think a Jaeger can be as good as 2 Skirmishers at least not Neddle gunners, Voltigeurs, Cassadors.

I was wondering if it would make sense to make the British cards that buff musketeers and grenadiers buff musketeers and longbowmen instead.

In other words, change the following cards from:
TEAM Musketeer and Grenadier HP
Musketeer and Grenadier Attack
Musketeer and Grenadier combat

to :
TEAM Musketeer and Archer HP (buffs team crossbowmen, yumis, chu ko nus, etc)
Musketeer and Longbowman Attack
Musketeer and Longbowman Combat

What do you guys think of this? Would this be overpowered by any chance in conjunction with the Yeomen card?

Grenadiers can be made to occupy only 1 population slot. However, this would end up buffing other civilizations as well. I don’t see a need for civilizations with good skirmishers to use them. However, for the British, it might be viable because of 3 cards that they share with Musketeers, grenade launchers and also, the Improved grenades card that improves their attack especially vs buildings.

2 Likes
2

i like that grenadiers get buffed, it gives british a unique lategame anti infantry unit. grenadiers have a large amount of HP, and a huge 50% resist to ranged attacks, they are relatively cheap and they do AOE dmg. in a pure anti infantry role grenadiers are better than longbows.

3

Their ranged resistance got nerfed to 40% from 50% in the DE.
They also nerfed the British card ‘Improved grenades’ or ‘Improved grenadiers’ to only be available in Age 4 from Age 2 and also do only 20% extra damage to buildings rather than 67% in the original.

Unfortunately, grenadiers get lesser range than most skirmishers but yeah, the area of effect makes this interesting.

4

I don’t think so. Brits are good as they are now. They have an outstanding army (focused mainly on heavy infantry) and good horses. Grenadiers are not used very often but that is true for every civ which has them… not only Brits.

But surely there are players who employ them like me. On Friday I had a very tough fight against another Brit player using grens and this convincted me grens are great!

And longbowman is better than skirmisher - cheaper and bigger attack.

1 Like
5

DE’s Grenade Launchers shipment makes grenadiers really strong. Whether or not it’s competitive to ship an age III shipment to enable decent grenadiers is yet to be determined, but they’re certainly viable now, once that shipment arrives.

Make sure you’re using longbows correctly, first of all. Their very first shot after moving has a long wind-up. usually takes 3 seconds to fire, which means they’re one shot behind a skirmisher. The extra range usually makes up for this. After that, they fire at a rate of 1 per 1.5 seconds, compared to a skirmisher’s 1 per 3. This means you have to keep your longbows standing still in an extended fight and that they’ll require some protection, but their damage is actually very high, and they’re definitely a competitive unit.

this would be way too strong. buffing two types of units across the entire team with one card is unheard of.

6

This is not about the grenadier but about the British lack of a gunpowder skirmisher and I proposed making grenadiers an alternative.

Not in really treaty, though. In treaty, you’ll also run out of wood. The range is good, though.

It lets them fire instantly and gives extra range, right?

Guess I gotta put them in stand ground. Maybe I am not using them right. Are you sure they are viable in treaty, though?

It maybe strong but far from unheard of .

Dutch get TEAM infantry HP which gives all infantry across the team +15% HP. Nerfed to just 10% for non Dutch teammates.

The Portuguese get a card called TEAM gunpowder infantry HP which gives +15% to all Skirmisher and Musketeer type units.

I think the French got a card that buffs the attack of all ranged infantry by +15% for the entire team.

The Germans got TEAM cavalry attack that buffs all cavalry attack by +15%. Nerfed to +10% for non German teammates.

The Spanish got a card called something like TEAM archaic infantry training time or something which lets you and your teammates make archer and pike type units faster.

All these cards buff 2 of more units for each civilization that are extremely viable for them. For example, Cassadors AND Musketeers are viable for the Portuguese, Uhlans AND War Wagons are viable for the Germans, Halberdiers AND Skirmishers are viable for the Dutch, Skirmishers AND Musketeers AND Crossbowmen are viable for the French but the French are more likely to go Skirms over the other two.

7

I’ll admit that I’m not entirely certain about longbows post-imperial age. It’s possible that they lack upgrades to make them sufficient in treaty. If that’s the case, I think an additional age V upgrade might be appropriate in order to separate Supremacy and Treaty balance.

As for the team cards, it seems you’re right. there are far more of this type of card than I thought. The french’s ranged infantry attack is just one unit type, but the others certainly do buff multiple unit types across the board.

8

Yeomen allows guard + imperial upgrades for lonbows

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This is not about the grenadier but about the British lack of a gunpowder skirmisher and I proposed making grenadiers an alternative.

I meant it in that way grens are underused because players do not know about them. That is my hypothesis:)

Not in really treaty, though. In reaty, you’ll also run out of wood. The range is good, though.

Yes, in Treaty there can arise a problem… However, Treaties are usually played in teams so Skirms can be delivered by other players, can’t they? Brits can mass musks, grens, cavs…

It maybe strong but far from unheard of .

Dutch get TEAM infantry HP which gives all infantry across the team +15% HP. Nerfed to just 10% for non Dutch teammates…

You are right. Maybe there should be a small change regarding team bonus :slight_smile:

11

Brit grens are very good at Age IV+. They will trade well vs any skirmisher unit (even Swede Jaegers) in a large fight. They are only really good in a group of 20+. But if you’ve actually seen fully upgraded British grenadiers in a large group, they will decimate enemy infantry. The problem with grens is that they are trash at Age 2 and it takes a ton of investment in terms of eco and cards to make them good. You will almost never see them taken in 1v1s or 2v2s as those games will be over at Fortress or early Industrial.

12

that’s not what I meant. OP is talking about giving longbows additional buffs through shipments. I’m saying that a better alternative would be to simply give them another upgrade in imperial age from the arsenal or capital perhaps. This way Supremacy balance remains unaffected, because longbows are not underpowered in supremacy, and brits hardly need a buff.

13

I wished that the units’ upgrade cards in Germany would affect mercenaries, but only one card does that (cavalry attack), but today I wonder if that would be OP.

I wished Germany had access to musketeers instead of Doppelsoldner (which is very bad), but today I wonder if I really want all civilizations to be equal.

In fact, the British civilization needs is similar to what Germany needs for the late game: improving Doppelsoldner and Longbowman:

@CagyUnicycle330
Doppelsoldner needs the Soligen Steel card to have another punishment, as reducing its speed by 33% to have 20% HP and attack (considering the unit fully updated) makes the unit worse than without using the card, Longbowman needs the upgrade Counter Infantry Rifling and a faster animation of the shot.

14

Would be they be broken if they were given the benefits from the Musketeer cards in Supremacy games?

What do you mean by unit type? It buffs all archer type units, all skirmisher type units, all musketeer type units. The only infantry left are the melee infantry like Pikemen, Halberdiers, Rodeleros, Samurai, , Rajput, Changdao Swordsmen, doppelsoldners and most of these are unique units. I think except for the Dutch and Swedes (even Swedes can spam Jaegers from their barracks with a certain card), EVERY civilization has at least 2 Infantry units that do damage from range: All the Asians, Spanish, Portuguese, Russians, British, French, Germans. I dunno about the natives, though.

There’s another card I forgot to mention. Swedes have a TEAM heavy infantry HP card that basically buffs all musketeer type units, doppelsoldners, pikemen, halberdiers… everything except light/shock infantry.

That is exactly why the Dutch and the German cards were nerfed in the DE. They buff an ENTIRE category of a unit by 15%.

That was changed in the DE. The upgrades are available by default. Yeomen now only buffs their range and LOS.

Yes. Most teammates for the British can create Skirmisher type units.

Actually, the Dutch and the German cards were nerfed to give only their own civilization 15% but teammates of other civilizations only 10%. This seems like a decent nerf.

Would changing the Musketeer and Grenadier cards to Musketeer and Longbowman cards be broken?

Solingen Steel is not really bad. It’s situational. If you get Military drummers (+10% speed) from the advanced arsenal and Tilly’s Discipline (+20% speed but +10% cost) from the advanced church, it’s only a 3% speed nerf. If doppelsoldners are your main unit, not a good idea but if you just need them to guard your cannons, it’s excellent. You’re thinking of such a card for Longbowmen?

15

I believe so. Brits already do very well in age II, and they can stay in age II for a really long time, usually massing longbows. I don’t think that the longbows themselves would be too strong, but a buff to longbows in age II would be a buff to conservative manor booming, which is already really strong imo.

By unit type, I’m talking about the counter system. Ranged infantry, heavy infantry, cavalry, ranged cavalry. Once again, I misspoke. I thought musketeers did not have the ranged infantry tag, but they do! Learning a lot in this topic :smile:

16

It is better to have Doppelsoldner with 5.85 speed but with -20% attack and HP, so it means that the card made the unit worse than it was before.
You cannot think the speed reduction will be compensated for by other cards, because that would be the same as increasing the price of a unit but believing that two other economic cards will compensate for the loss.

No.

What I said is what Longbowman needs is a faster animation of shooting and somehow increase by +1 multiplier against heavy infantry, just like the skirmisher can do (Counter Infantry Rifling) or as Gurkhas (Royal Green Jackets).

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17

If you ship the church card you can get 26 Rogers rangers from the church on age 4 which are essentially guard skirms!!

18

Brits do well at just about any age except maybe super late Imperial. What do you mean by conservative manor booming? I’m not sure I get what you mean there.

I believe musketeers have the following tags: Infantry, Heavy Infantry, Ranged Infantry, Gunpowder Infantry

I can agree here.

Trust me. TIlly’s Discipline is definitely worth it at least in Treaty games. In conjunction with the advanced arsenal, you will get Skirmishers with 5.20 speed.

The Royal Green Jackets is a card, right? It also gives free Gurkas with consulate improvements. A faster animation and an increase in multipliers vs. Heavy infantry sounds very good. I’m wondering whether this should be added to the Yeomen card (now that Guard and Imperial Longbowman are available without it) or a research called counter infantry archery should be added.

Skirmishers get 3.0 multiplier vs Heavy Infantry with the counter infantry rifling research, I believe.

#1. That’s a one time shipment. The 13 Cherokee riflemen card (previously 25) is way better because it can be sent infinite times
#2. This is about treaty. Guard level units in a late imperial scenario are not good.

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19

I agree with you, Tilly’s discipline is good.

Adding the cost of Counter Infantry Rifling to this Yeomen card for him to have +1 multiplier against heavy infantry seems fair, but if we still put in a faster animation, just like the skirmishers, then this unit would be very strong for its cost and only 1 population.

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20

They would become broken tbh. The attack animation that they have now is what keeps them from being able to kite and abuse the massive range and faster rate of fire. I like the idea of giving extra multiplier against HI through the Yeomen card. I always thought it should do that. Giving it +0.25 vs HI seems like a good change so that they can have same multiplier as Yumi. Anymore than that seems too strong.

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21

I’m perfectly ok with the +1 attack multiplier vs Infantry without the faster animation.

Man, I’m ok with a +0.75 or a +1.0 attack multiplier against heavy infantry. Agree with you on the attack animations part… it can also be made like guard longbowman upgrade gives +0.5 attack multiplier vs Heavy Infantry and Imperial longbowman gives another +0.5 . That way, the unit won’t be too strong in the fortress age… or maybe make it like Veteran upgrade gives +0.35, Guard gives another 0.35 and the Imperial upgrade gives another 0.35… this will add to a total of 2.3x vs. Heavy Infantry.