Balancing Landmarks ideas thread

Heyo, I feel (as many do) that many landmarks are completely useless or next to useless when compared to their counterparts.
Wanted to dedicate a thread where people can share their ideas and comment on other ideas regarding the landmarks and how they can be fixed / bettered.

I’ll post my ideas as a comment to the thread to not take unfair priority over anyone, hope we can have an interesting discussion

Here is my take:

So my ideas revolve not around weakening any landmark, but to make the other landmarks more viable while also fitting to the identity of the civ. I’ll sometimes add my thoughts and explanation in []

  • English
    Abbey of Kings: In addition to the current bonus, allow it to function as a barracks with a small(20%?) cost reduction to Man at Arms

  • Delhi
    Tower of Victory: Increase bonus to 20%, make it apply across all none-siege units including elephants and cavalry.
    Compound of the Defends: Same bonus, but also castle emplacements shouldn’t cost resources at all.
    Palace of the Sultan: Same bonus, but can also garrison up to 6 scholars, scholars in the palace are twice as effective towards reducing research cost time.

  • Abbasids
    [Im going to treat their “first wing tech” as a landmark, as this is their early power spike]
    Camel support: Adds +2 vs ranged, +2 vs melee. (instead of +1/+1)
    Spice roads: Increase the bonus to 50% [to be a competitive early eco bonus with the fresh foodstuffs]
    Preservation of Knowledge: Technologies cost reduced by 40%
    [ honestly think the whole house of wisdom needs an overhaul, but thats for another discussion]

  • French
    Chamber of Commerce: Also makes your markets and docks produce trade units 50% faster
    Royal Institute: Access Imperial unique techs for 50% cost reduction
    Red Palace: In addition to current bonus, stables and Archery ranges in its influence produce 300% faster

  • HRE
    Meinwerk Palace: Instead of current bonus, upgrades all blacksmith armor techs for free as soon as you advance an age. [Currently its just a different flavor of eco bonus to the superior Achen chapel, this way its an early power spike in addition to eco bonus]
    Regnitz Cathedral: Relics generate 200 gold per minute(instead of 300), the cathedral can hold up to 5 relics (instead of 3, for a max of 1000 rather than 900). [This will make contesting relics more interesting, as getting 3 relics is just too easy since you have prelates up already. Makes the landmark high risk-reward.]
    Elzbach Palace: Has 500% the HP of a keep. Buildings and units in influence take 33% less damage.

  • Rus
    Kremlin: In addition to current bonus, All wooden fortress influence aura increases lumber returned to lumbercamp and TC by 30% (from 20% prev)
    Spasskaya Tower: Includes new defensive technologies that can be researched from the landmark[ devs can work it out]

  • Mongols
    Kurultai: In addition, Khan recharges his special arrow abilities twice faster when in the influence of a Kurultai
    [I am not playing Mongols enough to comment more on it. But the Castle age landmarks(Khaganate palace and white stupa) seem too similar and uninteresting as both basically generate more army over long period of time. They should be more different in their role imo]

  • Chinese
    Imperial Academy: Change to Feudal age landmark (rather than dark age). In addition to current bonus, it increases the maximum amount of Imperial officials by +1. Imperial Examination tech should cost more and also add +1 to maximum amount of officials(for 6 overall) <The landmark makes no sense as Dark Age landmark, as there isn’t enough tax built within your camps to make the bonus worthwhile when you reach feudal. Its currently is only good as a song dynasty landmark which makes choice none existent>
    Astronomical Clocktower: Should be a dark age landmark[WAIT hear me out]. Acts as a normal siege workshop, but can only produce Trebuchets in the feudal age. Becomes a normal Siege workshop in Castle age, and has the “Clocktower Siege” bonus as an upgrade you can research in castle age. [Allows you to choose between defensive Barbican to a crazy aggressive siege option that is highly costly]

My immature suggestions:

Abbasid:

Can garrison up to 5 villagers to reduce the age up time. +2 fire armor in Imperial.

Chinese:

Make all secondary landmarks 50% cheaper.
– Barbican:
Include upgrades like outposts and keeps, unlocked by aging up.
– Imperial academy:
Keep imperial examination as it is. Can also train IO at half the cost, max IO amount +1.
– Clocktower:
Reduce HP boost from +50% to +25%. Has an influence area for other siege workshops, allowing them to also produce siege at +25%.
– Imperial palace:
20% cheaper like Swabia, which makes its base cost 960/480, and 480/240 as the second landmark. IO limit +1. Includes unique techs that buff palace guard and dynasty units. Can no longer spy on enemy villagers.
– Gatehouse:
Also make villagers remember how to build previously unlocked dynasty buildings.

HRE:

– Meinwerk:
tech cost -40% instead of -25%.
– Regnitz:
+100% gold instead of +200%. Relics placed elsewhere also gets +50%.
– Burgrave:
Also produce units with a 30% gold discount.
– Elzbach:
idk what makes them different, but make Elzbach as good as the red palace.

English:

– Abbey:
All of your archeries produce units 25% faster. Garrison 1 monk to make it 35%. I really don’t have a good idea for this one.
– King’s palace:
20% cheaper.
– White tower:
Network of castles attack speed bonus increase from 25% to 30%.
–Wynguard:
Only produce one type of unit for free. Player can choose which kind to produce (MaA, spearman, longbow, knight, treb).

Delhi:

– Tower of victory:
Units recently healed by scholars gain +35% attack speed.
– Hisar:
Count as a fully garrisoned mosque (3 scholars).

Mongol:

– Kurultai:
Also reduces the improved tech stone cost by 20%.
– Steppe redoubt:
Gold dropoff bonus reduce from +50% to +30%.
– Khaganate:
Only produce one unit type, and the player gets to choose. Different unit types have different cooldowns instead of a constant 90 sec.

Rus:

– Kremlin:
Has longer range than regular wooden fortresses.
– High trade house:
45 sec per deer instead of 60.
– Spasskya:
idk, make it stronger. Maybe buff the Lodya attack ship.

1 Like

I can’t speak for most, but I think you’re way off on Delhi. Compound of Defender is quite possibly too strong already. Currently both Delhi Castle Age landmarks are used frequently, so I’m not sure there’s a need to change either of them. There may very well be a need to nerf stone wall tower pushes in general (probably by nerfing the construction of stone walls in general).

Tower of Victory, in my opinion, aside from being debugged, needs to affect any foot units passing through mosque influence, not just the Tower of Victory influence. It should also allow immediate capture of sacred sites (meaning you hit Feudal with that landmark, you can capture sacred sites). I’ve also toyed with the idea of it letting foot soldiers build mosques, but I’m not sure on that one. Not sure about buffing cavalry either.

Sanctity research should ONLY double gold from sacred sites. It should not allow early (Feudal) capture. Feudal capture should be tied to Tower of Victory only, and as stated above, should be immediate.

Dome of Faith should get some kind of eco bonus (maybe villagers work 10% faster for some period of time, say 20 seconds, after passing through mosque influence) to account for no Feudal capture of sacred sites. I’m not sure what the best bonus would be, but it needs something suitable for defensive/booming play. That would also help Delhi with lack of Feudal sacred site capture on, say, Black Forest and island maps. Right now the Feudal sacred sites are too critical to Delhi’s success. That should be one way of playing Delhi, not a mandatory way to play Delhi.

Palace of the Sultan should let you choose whether to make xbow or archer elephants. Hisar Academy needs to be debugged and possibly provide a bit more food.

Interesting Ideas, I like it. I’ll admit I might be wrong about the compound., I’ll give it another consideration.
I only not agree with you about Sanctity, it should remain a feudal age tech that allows capturing sites as it is a big part of Delhi playstyle. Maybe buff the other techs to be competitive and optional as starting techs too.

I also don’t really like you Palace of sultan idea, as bow elephants are a lesser unit(simply unupgraded), and i don’t think we really need to make 2 types of ranged elephants for the civ.

I like the Tower of Victory idea

Leaving this here since we have asked for Landmark rebalance since stress test and barely got anything.

Imperial Academy

  • In my games I seem to be generating more tax gold than my IO’s can ever collect, essentially meaning I’m not getting most of the tax gold bonus, and that the double tax gold bonus from the academy isn’t worth it. The upgrade to tax carrying capacity is worth more than the building. I’d like it if you considered having no tax collection cooldown, and that IO’s instead just only auto-collect taxes that would fill their carrying capacity like my suggestion above.
  • At the start of every game I build my buildings in a defensive pattern around my villagers and TC, but later if I want to get the most out of an academy I need to build it and all of my production buildings all near my TC somehow. This generally means I either don’t use most of the influence area, or I give the IO too long a walk time to collect all the extra tax gold. I’d like it if the academy was considered a drop off point for tax gold so I could use the entire influence area.

Landmark balance changes

  • Imperial Academy can now train Imperial Officials at 50% cost
  • Imperial officials gather up to 10 additional tax gold per age, which means 30 tax in Age II, 40 tax in Age III, 50 Tax in Age IV. The +20 carry capacity stays in the game for a maximum of 70 tax gathered per trip in Age IV.
  • Cooldown to collect Tax from the same building is now 10 seconds instead of 30 seconds.
  • Barbican of the Sun now increases attack speed for itself, all towers, wall towers, Keeps, Town Centers and its fortifications by 10%
  • The Great Wall of China gatehouse now boosts attack damage of infantry on walls by 20% regardless of where they are, instead of boosting attack damage by 50% in a very small radius around it
  • The Spirit Way Landmark now reduces the cost of all Dynasty units by 20% instead of 30%, but applies to all Dynasty units regardless of where they are produced

Explanation:

The Tax collection has multiple issues. Being able to train Imperial Officials cheaper from the Landmark will be a small earlygame help which the Chinese need.

The Barbican of the Sun is similar to the Kremlin - but much worse. A small buff will help Chinese fortifications and make it easier to defend. In case you are interested, I did the math and the Handcannon attacks does less dps against every enemy with 3 or less armor than the Kremlin. I presume its the same with other towers and the TC.

The Great Wall of China Gatehouse has basically no effect. Most players build no or very few stone walls. Building Keeps is just better.

The Spirit Way Landmark has very little effect because as the game progresses you build production buildings near the front to cut reinforcement time. This is extremely important and in this case the Spirit Way does nothing. You also need to enter a Dynasty before this building even provides any bonus. In its current state, its one of, if not the worst Landmark in the game.

Tax collection changes:

  • All tax generated on a building that is supervised gets converted into gold and added to your ressources directly. Credit to Aussie_Drongo for this great idea!
  • See above suggestions for Tax cooldown and gather capacity
  • Officials can now drop off Tax at Keeps just like they were Town Centers.

You are never going to get any Tax from buildings which are in the middle of the map. Stone Camps, Wood Camps, forward production buildings, unless you build a TC nearby which is a waste of ressources. The Change to supervise and being able to drop off Keeps is an easy fix for these huge issues.

Chinese specific issues/Feedback:

Dynasty units and buildings must stay unlocked once unlocked by dynasties. It doesn’t make sense to loose access to them. It also devalues the investment into additional Landmarks.

  • Granaries are too big. They require 4 farms of space, making it too difficult to place it inside your base. Especially placing 3 of them next to each other for stacked effect. Please make Granaries smaller. They should take up 1 farm of space, same as a mill. Or they should be a direct upgrade from a mill, to make it easier to plan and build a base correctly. Other users have reported issues that the villager does not drop ressources at the edge of a granary, but rather in the middle. This additional walking time means the gather rate bonus is less effective.
  • The 2nd Landmark for Age 3 and Age 4 need to be reduced in cost. They are too expensive and not worth building for Dynasty bonuses. Its better to just build units instead.
  • Stone Walls in general feel very weak, its better to just build Castles. As such, the Great Wall of China Landmark is too weak and should provide buffs to castles and towers aswell.

The Chinese Spirit Way Landmark influence zone needs to be increased. Or it should be a permanent buff for all production buildings.

Compare this to the influence bonus of the French and their castles, the french castle influence bonus is much larger and it can apply to many production buildings. This is not the case for the Chinese. Of course, the French can build infinite number of castles which can improve all production buildings, but the Chinese cannot extend their influence zone of the Spirit Landmark to all production buildings.

Here is a quick sketch of the issue with the Spirit Way Landmark:

Picture 1. Sketch of an optimal Chinese base layout with Imperial Academy, Spirit way and production buildings.

As you can see here, its impossible to get your production buildings into the influence are of both the Imperial Academy (Tax bonus Landmark) and the influence area of the Spirit way Landmark (30% price reduction for Dynasty units).

Picture 2. Sketch of an optimal Chinese base layout with Imperial Academy, Spirit way and production buildings. In this image, the Spirit Way influence was increased and changed from a circle to a square to make building placement easier.

As you can see in picture 2, changing the influence radius from a circle to a square makes it much easier to plan and place your production buildings properly.

However, as we can seee its still impossible to fit all buildings into the Influence Zone of both Landmarks. Therefore, I suggest to make the Spirit Way 30% cost reduction for Dynasty units apply to all production buildings regardless of placement.

The Chinese base building is already the most difficult in the entire game, especially once Granaries come into play. At this point, its simply too difficult. Because of this, the Chinese are unable to take advantage of their Landmark and civ bonuses.

1 Like

Except the bad comparison between Kremlin and Barbican (I think Chinese landmarks should be slightly worse by design as they make 2 each age) and IO auto-collecting resources from overseen eco-buildings seem very OP even if Drongo thinks otherwise. Other than that I LOVE your suggestions about chinese landmark changes and IO changes! Hope devs see this

No they shouldn’t. There is no justification for this at all. The Chinese Landmark are absolute crap unless its the Clocktower, which just got a huge nerf.

You get almost nothing of value for spending 1800 ressources on your 2nd Age III Landmark and spending 3600 ressources on your 2nd Age IV Landmark is too much aswell. This almost never happens in competitive games. Not even all games go to Age IV.

Where exactly is Chinese supposed to get these ressources from to spend them in the first place?

They used to start with 2 more villagers when everyone used to start with 4 villagers, thats 50% more. Maybe back before release these costs were justified. But not anymore. Everyone starts with 6 villagers now and Chinese got all of their earlygame bonuses removed. No more +2 villagers. No more +100 food which they had after they got -2 villagers.

Meanwhile French is pulling ahead in villagers and has cheaper tech without even having to do anything. And there is no counterplay either. And has much stronger Landmarks too.

So why would anyone play Chinese at this point? You can’t expect Chinese go pay thousands of ressources for Dynasties and bad Landmarks. Just pick other civs with better bonuses that don’t get nerfed to the ground.

I am not saying Chinese do not need a buff, they do. I was saying their landmarks should be slightly worse than other civs landmarks. I am also not saying their landmakrs should be useless either (which most of them are at the moment).
I like your changes, I just do not agree with you when you compare Rus landmark with a Chinese landmark. Landmarks should be balance within a civ not compared to other civs. And the overall strength of a civ should be compared to other civs.

Yes this is something we can all agree on. But the fact is all Chinese landmarks but the Clocktower are either mediocre or straight up terrible. The fact that this has not changes since stress test is a huge issue and its unacceptable. No matter how many weeks go by without changes. Its still unacceptable.

And obviously the civs should be comparable in strength. The current patch did the exact opposite. Chinese was nerfed to the ground again. Just like in the stress test. Because the devs refuse to fix the bugged nest of Bees and buff Chinese Landmarks.

Chinese should be powerful without having to go to Age IV and ressearch all techs for their bombards and spam bombards. This was never good design, but it was the way the civ was built. And now we have to wait for another patch and hope the devs come up with some ideas to make Chinese powerful without relying on age 4 bonuses.

Up until then, Chinese will be laughing stock again and underrepresented in competitive games.

I don’t think you’re right about archer vs xbow elephants. Archers and xbows are totally different units. Archers are better vs spears, xbows and other archers. Xbows are better against knights and MAA. So far as I know the tower elephant literally has those units mounted on it. Depending on what the opponent is doing, you might want 1 or the other. I think archery ranges should have a toggle to switch them as well (also bug with upgrades not applying needs to be fixed, but that’s a separate issue).

That said, I haven’t done a test. Would be interesting to see whether archer or xbow elephant kills spearmen faster. I also don’t know if the archers/xbows benefit (or are intended to benefit) from their respective veteran/elite upgrades.

The reason I say sanctity should now allow capture of sacred sites in Feudal (tie that to Tower of Victory) is I want sacred site play to be OPTIONAL for Delhi. Right now it isn’t. If Delhi doesn’t get sacred sites, Delhi can’t keep up. Making it optional (important to balance Delhi on black forest, island maps, etc.) requires a buff somewhere else (I suggested an eco bonus tied to Dome of Faith) which would be WAY overpowered if it wasn’t mutually exclusive with early sacred site capture. Thus I suggest tying it to the landmarks, so you pick one or the other and can’t do both.

I’ve also wondered about tower of victory buffing ships produced from docks under the influence of a mosque. That would give it some utility on water maps.