Chinese buffs and fixes suggestion after Genesis

Hey there!

So we all know Chinese has big issues and overall doesn’t feel smooth to play due to some poor design.

Here are some balance and quality of life suggestions which would make Chinese much better and more fun to play.

Starting bonus

  • Chinese start with +2 villagers

Explanation: The Chinese have a worse earlygame economy compared to other civs and are exceptionally vulnerable in Age 2 against attacks. This will speed up their earlygame. They used to start with +2 villagers but this bonus was taken away for no reason.

Landmark balance changes

  • Imperial Academy can now train Imperial Officials at 50% cost
  • Imperial officials gather up to 10 additional tax gold per age, which means 30 tax in Age II, 40 tax in Age III, 50 Tax in Age IV. The +20 carry capacity stays in the game for a maximum of 70 tax gathered per trip in Age IV.
  • Cooldown to collect Tax from the same building is now 10 seconds instead of 30 seconds.
  • Barbican of the Sun now increases attack speed for itself, all towers, wall towers, Keeps, Town Centers and its fortifications by 10%
  • The Great Wall of China gatehouse now boosts attack damage of infantry on walls by 20% regardless of where they are, instead of boosting attack damage by 50% in a very small radius around it
  • The Spirit Way Landmark now reduces the cost of all Dynasty units by 20% instead of 30%, but applies to all Dynasty units regardless of where they are produced

Explanation:

The Tax collection has multiple issues. Being able to train Imperial Officials cheaper from the Landmark will be a small earlygame help which the Chinese need.

The Barbican of the Sun is similar to the Kremlin - but much worse. A small buff will help Chinese fortifications and make it easier to defend. In case you are interested, I did the math and the Handcannon attacks does less dps against every enemy with 3 or less armor than the Kremlin. I presume its the same with other towers and the TC.

The Great Wall of China Gatehouse has basically no effect. Most players build no or very few stone walls. Building Keeps is just better.

The Spirit Way Landmark has very little effect because as the game progresses you build production buildings near the front to cut reinforcement time. This is extremely important and in this case the Spirit Way does nothing. You also need to enter a Dynasty before this building even provides any bonus. In its current state, its one of, if not the worst Landmark in the game.

Tax collection changes:

  • All tax generated on a building that is supervised gets converted into gold and added to your ressources directly. Credit to Aussie_Drongo for this great idea!
  • See above suggestions for Tax cooldown and gather capacity
  • Officials can now drop off Tax at Keeps just like they were Town Centers.

You are never going to get any Tax from buildings which are in the middle of the map. Stone Camps, Wood Camps, forward production buildings, unless you build a TC nearby which is a waste of ressources. The Change to supervise and being able to drop off Keeps is an easy fix for these huge issues.

Unit balance changes:

  • Zhuge Nu attack range increased to 5.0, same as Archers and Crossbowmen
  • Zhuge Nu movement speed increased to 1.25, same as other Archers
  • Zhuge Nu bugfix now benefits from reduced cost properly
  • Zhuge Nu gets an upgrade in Age III which adds +2 damage per shot against armored units only
  • Palace Guard upgrade battle hardened (+30 HP) moved to Age III from Age IV
  • Nest of Bees buffed in such a way that they are actually better than Mangonels, not worse
  • Nest of Bees now benefit from Chemistry like they should
  • Nest of Bees can now fire while standing inside water

Explanation:
The Zhuge Nu is a worse Archer and gets kited easily. Its also useless against armored units, a new ugprade in Age III will help. The Mongols get a similar +2 upgrade on their special units and so should the Chinese.
Palace Guard loses to all other Men at Arms in direct combat and is much weaker against ranged attacks due to its low armor. Moveing the +30 HP upgrade to Age III will help somewhat.
The Nest of Bees is a worse Mangonel and has several bugs.

Dynasty System:

  • The Dynasty button is moved to the bottom left side, right above your Imperial Official UI and reduced in size
  • All units and Dynasty buildings stay unlocked once unlocked
  • Granaries made smaller than 4x4 tiles, preferably 2x2 or 1x1 tiles, drop off point changed accordingly
  • Cost of granaries reduced to 100 wood from 250 wood
  • Pagoda now produces 5 times the amount of gold per minute if a relic is deposited inside. That means instead of only producing 10 gold per minute, which is nothing, it produces 50 gold per minute (ontop of the 100 gold per minute from a relic)
  • Once you build a 2nd Landmark, the cost of the next 2nd Landmark to enter a Dynasty is reduced by 400 food and 200 coin. This means you if you entered the song Dynasty and want to enter Yuan Dynasty, you save 400 food and 200 coin. If you entered the Yuan Dynasty and want to enter the Ming Dynasty, you save 800 food and 400 coin.

Explanation:

The Dynasty system is not worth investing into for anything other than Song Dynasty. Its too expensive, its bonuses are lost upon entering another Dynasty. Its buildings and units must stay unlocked. The Chinese Landmarks are straight up worse Landmarks compared to what everyone else gets and investing into a second Age III or Age IV Landmark is too expensive.

Granaries have multiple issues and its too difficult to place them. Because when you enter Yuan Dynasty you already have all your farm economy placed.

The 15% gather rate bonus also doesn’t translate to 15% faster food collection in game. Check out this video which explains why:

The Pagoda does nothing special and is not worth building for 10 gold per minute and some negligible tax.

Here are relevant links to topics already discussed by the community:

I’m looking forward to your feedback and suggestions!

7 Likes

Okay, so +2 vills, huge buffs to Barbican and Zhuge Nu. We already seeing Chinese boom with Song. I’d cut out Barbican buff. Zhuge Nu buff is fine but no +2 damage tech. With the proposed buffs, they’ll be strong vs spears and other ranged units. No need to give them +2 damage to heavy they’re supposed to be garbage against them. Thats the role of crossbows.

I will agree with the granary and pagoda buff. I would agree that entering other dynasties should be cheaper, but then the fire lancer and especially the grenadier is one of the strongest units in game. I’d nerf the torch damage of fire lancers and reduce the HP of grenadiers to 95.

Those nerfs should offset all the other buffs a bit.

Chinese civilization is depressing. I think the problem lies in some of the most basic designs: The Huaxia Civilization designed by the developers relies on expansion to levy taxes, and changes to dynasties to obtain bonus units (Zhuge Crossbow and Musketeer), but this design also brings players more Burden. Compared with other factions entering the Empire period, they will have new technologies or new enhancement units, and players hardly need to do anything extra. The reward given by the Chinese civilization is to reduce the unit cost. Encourage Chinese civilized players to use a larger number of troops than their opponents to fight, rather than better quality troops, which keeps Chinese players busy with training and operations, instead of improving the unit quality to make the player’s operation easier.

To make matters worse, the developers did not design a good setup suitable for large-scale troop training. For example, the Huaxia Civilization in AOE3 has at least a unique flag army system that can train a large number of units at once, while the Huaxia Civilization in AOE4, China’s large-scale military training is very troublesome. You have to build more buildings, look for a large vacant lot in a place that is already full of buildings, let alone the troublesome Spirit Way buildings and the Great Wall Gate. Oh my God, how many players have to build the Great Wall Gate because of the good wall construction is too troublesome, And choose to use Spirit Way (Although Spirit Way is also very troublesome, you still have to build a bunch of buildings next to it)

In team battles, Chinese civilization may perform well, but in mainstream 1v1, the dynasty system is always a choice after you have already gained an advantage, not a choice for rewards. The Dynasty system consumes a lot of resources and a lot of construction time, but the rewards are so insignificant and not obvious, it is really difficult for people to want to use it.

I would rather not have Fire Lancer and grenadier, but let the Chinese civilization have more rewards in the castle age, rather than put the rewards in the distant emperor era.

Either lose the game before you get the reward, or get the reward when you almost win the game. This is my view on the special rewards of Chinese civilization. Compared to Britain and France, which were rewarded in the Dark Ages, even the Sultanate may receive rewards in the Holy Land through scientific research and development in the early days. The rewards of Huaxia Civilization consume huge resources and require players to spend a lot of energy to plan.

2 Likes

Very thorough and alot of research :+1: good job…
@RadiatingBlade he put alot of similar chinese builds worth merging?

I need new patch

need huge buff for Chinese civ.

2 Likes

Asymmetry is 90% of what makes AoE4 worth time and money. Double down on what makes Chinese unique. Buff the dynasties somewhat (including Zhuge Nu); don’t overdo it… Also Delhi, let infantry build Outpost in addition to Palisades, buff elephants a bit.

I love to run into these posts about balance that end up proving very premature. This post is just another one. Given how strong China is regarded by many top players right now (also evident in tournaments), this post now looks like a clown’s work.

2 Likes

No issue with early game chinese buff but needs insane nerf in late game.

Siege units should receive +25% HP instead of 50%. Its a siege unit not an armored tank.

No Mongol’s/Chinese or any buff speed buff other than siege tech should apply to siege units. Makes no sense.

No siege unit should have the range of anti-siege. e.g chinese bombard should not have 12 tile range.

Fire lancers needs to be fixed. I wont write a long list of what is wrong with this unit.

China should be eliminated when any of 4 landmarks are destroyed. They will reconsider making barbarian of son in enemy base. Its a defensive landmark not a tower/keep.

1 Like

Buff China

https://aoe4world.com/stats/civilizations

1 Like