If the next DLC doesn't bring minor factions, rework the old minor factions

I hope the next DLC brings with it some minor factions, be they royal houses or otherwise. But if not, it would be a good time to rework the older minor factions, even if not at the release of this DLC, but with a promise that they will do so at some point.

The developers have let us know that they share our enthusiasm and like these kinds of ideas. What is the problem that does not allow this?


[Minor Natives topic] Post here your ideas for every single minor natives so the devs can look at - #146 by Ippert

This has been one of the most popular requests on the forums since shortly after the release of the Definitive Edition and there have been many discussions about how this could be done.

[Minor Natives topic] Post here your ideas for every single minor natives so the devs can look at

Will the devs ever make minor native civs useful?

Natives or minor factions (General discussion)

How to make the native semi-civ more useful?

Minor Civilizations Should Have Passive Abilities

Catalog of proposals on minor factions/civilizations (AOE-3 BASIC + TWC + TAD)

All Minor Civs (Natives) Rework Concept (and some new ones)

While they have made subtle efforts to improve the viability of alliances with natives, and many of these units and technologies are indeed useful, there are many that leave much to be desired.

It would be nice to have new units and technologies in these native settlements, and to rework the units and technologies/upgrades if necessary.

Adding new minor factions to existing maps to fill in the gaps and inconsistencies would also be something I would appreciate.

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Unpopular opinion but European natives are mostly useless in treaty. I get some units, ok and then what?? At least others give permanent eco/military upgrades

Daily dose of reality… November 2021

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Broken units. Rechargeable god powers. Some great techs. What’s not to like?

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Royal houses offer versatility by having complementary units (for example you can create combos like skirmishers and dragons), although many of their technologies are not focused on economy, they have abilities that offer bonuses and/or free units indefinitely. Also some of their upgrades make troops cheaper, which indirectly is an economic improvement.

They serve both early game, late game and treaty, so I consider them to be fine, although some units and upgrades require some buffing or rework, but subtly.

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Bro…
Do you even play?
All euro royal houses are almost overtuned.
Borbon and Habsburg let you have a masive quantity of xp, Hanover gives you a free shipment plus a way to age up with a free factory on top.
If any, the natives that gives the less are the OG american natives, which always have this 3 types of improvements: A shipment of resources + some circunstancial improvement + some improvement that only affects the native units. You could skip them and you wouldn’t lag behind.

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Honestly there’s miles in between the Royal houses themselves in regards to quality and auto need on a field.

There was already a massive gulf between american natives and asian natives in regards to how good they were. RH are just better.
Though i personally never saw someone actually go up with the hanoverian tech into imperial but rather get a 3rd factory, frankly in supremacy i don’t know if even a single civ can do so reasonably

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They think it would be feasible for Native American and Asian settlements to have a large skill button just like European royal houses, they also think it would be a good idea for all Native American and Asian settlements to have at least two units and one or two new technologies in addition to those they already have, I ask because at this point in the game the Native Americans and Asians are not on par with their European counterpart, which leaves them at a disadvantage in terms of infantry, technology and skills, by the way. Does anyone know why the Lenape natives have not yet been added to the skirmish game maps?

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The royal house abilities are very easy to forget about and aren’t very user friendly so it would be a waste to add more. I’d rather they give everyone passive abilities instead.

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They should have saved them for wonder effects for future asian civs

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Or even current Asian civs. The Confucian Academy could easily be reworked as a Fireworks Workshop that has the fireworks ability in addition to training Flying Crows.

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Now I would argue that what minor civs need most is a lower barrier to entry rather than more effects.

American and Asian minor civs don’t really need new technologies or effects to bring them on par with European and African minor civs. What I mean is that a fair minor civ should mean that it provides a similar level of benefits to each civ (although there will inevitably be differences), not that they have to provide the same amount of things as other minor civs.

It’s like having two boxes on the table. To players, the so-called fairness is that when I open box A and box B, I can get a cheesecake and a cup of coffee respectively, and when you open box A and box B, you can also get the same things, not just a piece of biscuit and a cup of water. It has nothing to do with fairness that both box A and box B must contain a cheesecake rather than one of the boxes only contain a cup of coffee.

Of course I am not against any new technology or effect. I’m just saying this is not necessary to solve the problem of minor civ.

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That any game feature is less complex and more intuitive is usually not well received by a significant part of the community.

Buzz Lightyear voice
“But we aren’t Age of Empires 2, are we?”

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I really hope that they could add some Asian natives either in the next DLC or in a DLC about SE Asia. Right now Asian maps only have religious sects or holy sites as minor civs, and they definitely can’t capture the diversity of peoples and cultures in the region, and I find this to be rather unfortunate.

Here’re some of my proposals for potential native minor civs for South China and Indochina. I only focus on these regions cause I know quite a lot about them. Though you may feel free to add your thoughts of native minor civs for other areas of Asia.

The Zhuang

Location

They can appear on various maps of Southern South China (Lingnan and Yungui) and Northern Indochina (Red River Valley, Lanxang Plateau, Plain of Jars, etc.)

Unit

Lang Bing or Wolf Troop. The original character for Lang should be 俍 with a human radical on the left, and this was one of the names given to the Zhuang people by the Ming, with unclear etymology. However overtime it became gradually confounded (whether intentionally or unintentionally) with the homophone 狼 with a dog radical on the left meaning “wolf”, hence given rise to the name Lang Bing (with “bing” meaning “troop” or “soldier”).

In terms of appearance this wouldn’t be an Asian version of Coyote Runner. Instead historical records suggest that native troops from this region mostly wore leather armors of some sort, with the 12th century first-hand account Lingwai Daida mentioning that the native Zhuang and Yao troops wore armors made out of bear hide. Though by the 16th century they had switched to using cowhide or buffalo hide instead (and they treated it with lacquer or tung oil), as mentioned in the Ming era record Chouhai Tubian. In terms of weapons they would use a type of poisoned crossbow at range, and would switch to Dao sword and wooden pavise shield at melee (the below historical painting Kangwo Tujuan showed them using pavise shield combined with a type of hooked polearm though I don’t think this was their usual equipment).

I’d imagine them be a ranged infantry of some sort in the game. When in range they would use a poisoned crossbow that has a shorter range and weaker attack than a typical European crossbowman, however they would have the poison effect similar to the Jungle Bowman of the Incas. And for hand attack they would use a sword + a pavise shield. They would have bonus against light ranged cavalry and ranged shock infantry, though would perish against heavy infantry, heavy cavalry, and artillery.

Possible Techs

Ang Quan, a traditional Zhuang martial art which focuses on knee and elbow strikes (some say that it may be related to the more famous Muay Thai). For effect this would improve the hand attack of your hand shock infantry.

Zhuang Rice Ceremony, the Zhuang people have the habit of eating five-colored rice (dyed with plants) during times of festivities. For effect this would improve your villager’s gathering rate from Mills, Farms, and Rice Paddies.

The Hmong

Location

Largely in the same areas as the Zhuang, though unlike the Zhuang they could appear on maps for Sichuan and Dongting (Middle Yangtse) as well.

Unit

Hmong Javelineer, a ranged heavy infantry clad in leather laminar armors and wielding a javelin and a pavise shield. For hand attack they would switch to a sword as well. They would have a rather high ranged resistance and would have bonus against light ranged cavalry and musket infantry, though would perish against hand shock infantry, heavy cavalry, and artillery. For the historical reference of this unit, there’re many surviving Ming and Qing era paintings of Hmong warriors, such as the following:

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And there’s even a surviving set of Hmong body armor from the 19th century, which was once used by a Hmong rebel leader

Possible Techs

Slash and Burn Farming, improves your villager’s construction speed of Farms, Mills, Estate, and Rice Paddies from 20 secs to 15 secs, and as well as decreases the cost of these buildings by 20%

Hill Fortification, improves the attack and range of Castles, War Huts, Watch Towers, and Outposts

The Tanka

Location

I intend them to represent not only the historical Tanka boat people as well as covering the She people (輋人) and the South Chinese pirates (they were active from the 11th or 12th century all the way to the 19th century, with some rather famous individuals like the female pirate boss Ching Shih), hence they would be present on nearly all maps from Jiangnan to the coasts of Indochina.

Units

Paper-Armored Militia. I’ve always wanted an unit wearing the historical South Chinese paper armor be introduced in the AoE franchise, either in AoE 2 or in AoE 3. This unit could also be called “South Chinese Pirate” although I don’t think such a term would work considering that the devs want the names to be as neutral as possible (which is why they changed names like Colonial Age to Commerce Age), hence the more neutral term Paper-Armored Militia.

According to Song and Ming era records, paper armors as well as some other types of organic armors (like leather, rattan, and even armors made out of isinglass) were commonly used by the militia, marines, sailors, and pirates active along the coasts of South China. Paper armors were made by cutting out mulberry paper or paper from old accounting books into squarish lamellar blocks around a few inches thick, and then stacking them on top of one another in a similar fashion as one would make a lamellar armor. For even better protection and durability some other materials could be added, like tung oil or some kind of resin on its surface to make it less susceptible to rotting, and wool, cotton, or hemp cloth into the paper blocks to make them even more arrow-resistant. It could be worn as a standalone armor or either underneath or on top of other armors.


In terms of weapon they could use either the aforementioned hooked polearm depicted in the Ming era painting about the Wolf Troops above. Per Ming era records this weapon was likely called a Scorpion’s Tail and was used in naval warfare, although how it was used is debatable. And there is at least one surviving example of the weapon

An even better alternative would be the Tangpa trident, also commonly used by troops from Ming and Qing era Southern China


In game this unit would function somewhat similarly to a pikeman, though with a lot more ranged resistance and a bonus damage against villagers and cavalry.

Tancareira. A Portuguese term given to Tanka women, boat women, or female pirates who were active in Macau in the 16th and 17th centuries. They were the only group of women in China who were willing to marry the Portuguese sailors. In-game they would function as a combination of Inca priestess and chasqui, can both heal and attack as well as build trading posts, and has a relatively high movement speed of 6.5. For weapon they would use the famous butterfly swords. There’re debates about the origin of this type of short swords, although a popular theory suggests they were originally naval or pirate weapons.


Possible Techs

Not sure about the name yet but some techs related to improving the working rate of docks or improving the fishing ships seem reasonable to me.

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Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

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Thanks for your appreciation.

The history of South China and SE Asia is really underrated and I sincerely hope that there could be more content about this region either in AoE 2 or AoE 3. I’m setting my expectations very low I don’t even wish to see new main civs from this region, but at least they could add some new minor civs from there in AoE 3.

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