My proposed balance changes (for whenever we get a patch)

Did I say anywhere that it’s the best thing ever? I just don’t think that removing this building is going to make Portuguese win rates better. It’ll just make it worse, because they’ll be a less of a go-to choice on the few maps where they currently excel.

Just give them an obvious buff if the civ feels underwhelming in the general case.

which happen in less then 2% of games. i on the other hand have given them a better market trade rates (see what that did for saracens), and a way to get their trade up faster in team games.

Players playing nothing but one map is not really the civ’s fault, but I also get the point that you’re making of course.

Isn’t this basically the Saracens bonus? I think this is a nerf but I’m not sure. Definitely hurts their bombard tower/castle abilities in team games (and of course 1v1 islands 11). I do like the rest of your balance changes though.

Have to mention Byzantines free town patrol since that’s standard in balance discussions.

Burmese should get a buff. That arambai change was a huge nerf not a wash as we can see in the stats. Give arambai more slightly more attack is the obvious answer.

Spanish should also get a minor buff. I like seeing the donkeys get more use. Allow them to pick up relics. I also like the idea of building houses and walls 2x faster.

Vietnamese should get both their UT buffed or tweaked. Maybe people would actually make elephants at least in TG and maybe in 1v1 arena or fortress. Or maybe people still won’t make elephants because they have better, more viable options even with buffing Chatras. I still think they should buff chatras for strategies that can catch your opponent off guard like Hera did with Celt paladin or if you’re a pocket in team games. Paper money should allow you to research it more than once but there is a time interval like 10 minutes before you can research it again.

its a combination of a few different things. and no. not as good as saracens. furthermore how often do you actually see games where portuguese can get to the point where the feitoria is paying off to the tune of spamming BBT/Castles?

these 3 are civs i’d like to buff but not sure how to go about it.

the devs have made it clear elephants are supposed to be a team game unit.

Good one. I would also give them bonus against spears (something like +4 maybe). Goal would be to make them as good vs Spear-line as Knight, but for smaller price.

Speed incrase is good, also faster upgrades are good. But buffing their antibuilding potential - no. Goth Span would be even more cancerous than is now.

Also, from me:
Hand Cannon -5F -5G, Acc +5%



Dont know, just unlocking units is to little as UT. I would rather go for little twist - Flemish Revolution changes every Lumberjacks and Idles to Flemish Militia. This simple change would allow player to control how many of eco wants to change to military (Wants to change all Eco? - select all Vills and send to wood. Two clicks. Wants to have less Militia? Just send Lumberjacs to something else for 2 sec). This would also allow opponent to potentialy scout FR and prepare - see more on wood - F, he goes for Revolution. Also have mind-games potential.
+1 for faster upgrades.

I dnot think Thumbring is good idea - their Archers and Skirms are less vulnerable to enemy Skirms. But I think they need Watch Tower, and Donjon should be cheaper in Stone (maybe 165)
+1 to speed boost.


6PA Karambits? And 2HTrashman? No, thanks. Karambits had 1 more PA, and this was nerfed.
Also, Malay used to have +80% faster up-time. This was nerfed too.

+1 Not sure of those numbers, but cost reduction is needet.
Also, UT Madrasah need to be changed. Just change effect to straight Monk cost reduction, like 25% maybe.

Im with @anon45959656 This is nerf for their late game, as well as for early game. No. I would rather change their TB to:

  • Docks provide 5 population.
    And give them Gilnets free. This would cement them as Water Civ.

But I dont have idea what give them.

Or give them +1 CavArcher Armor.
And Give Burmese SO or SR.

Similar to Arambai, we can give Conqs +1 CavArcher armor. Remove Heavy CavArcher. Give them Crossbow. (I know, I know… Idntity, bla, bla, bla… They arent unique with this anymore)

+1, but Byz also need early game bonus. I was thinking about

  • Houses cost only 10 wood.
    Gain Heavy Scorpion.

My propositions:

  • change Team Bonus to “Enemy TCs visible for team from the start”
  • Imperial Skirm as Unique Upgrade for them, maybe also for some other Civs.
  • Chatras - chage effect to "Elephant Trample Damage +10% (from 25% to 35%) - Eles have plenty of HP regardless, and VietEles lack punch
  • Paper Money gives VietPlayer better price for selling wood in Market (from 17/100 to 21/100 - like Saracens, but only for wood)

Also, another Civs:


  • Mahouts removed, change Eles stats to match this.
  • Change Mahouts to “Composite Bows” - CavArchers gain +2 range
  • Remove Squires


  • Ironclad changed effect to Knights and Champions +2 MA, Halbs and Scouts +1 MA
  • Siege gain +4 MA as Civ Bonus.

Ok but you need to increase the speed of other infantry units that are at the same level as well, like the serjeant.

I would instead buff their monastery, but TR can be good as well.

That’s a lot for a civ that already have discounted scouts and free attack upgrades (one of the strongest scouts rushes of the game).

It’s 136 food with just the 2 boars, and another 112 with deers. More than what mayans get.

Maybe just a bonus that meat doesn’t rot, both on hunt and herdables.

Why, they already have trash 2HS, why buff them even more.

Maybe free infantry armors could be an alternative.

They need to lose something in return though, like squires (to name one…)

Also, maybe a bonus that eco buildings give +5 pop.

I would like to test this, it seems messy but it could have potential…

I’m not convinced though…

Mmm… I’m not convinced about this one, but I can’t understand why…

For the rest I agree with you more or less, but I think that also Italians, koreans, spanish and goths.

I would like to Donjons have 25% more HP in Feudal Age, to 1250 and 33% more HP in Castle/ Imperial Age, to 2000 and 3000 HP. Should help justify their higher cost. (They do get Guard Tower and Keep free in a sense.)
Serjeants should have +5 HP in Feudal and +10 HP in Castle and Imperial. They need a bit more bulk.

I’m surprised that no Monastery tech is given for free. Maybe that’s for the better. Although, free Sanctity or Fervor could be good for Spanish.

Overall i like your ideas.

Going in detail about the burgs, i liked the economic bonus idea.
The flemish militia idea is also good, losing vils is a bad mechanic in my opinion.
I’d also give them access to bloodlines as well, but only in imperial (no one wants to see 140hp cavalier on castle age). This could be a reword from their cavalier bonus: Cavalier acessible on castle age, but bloodlines only available on Imperial age, because IMO a cavalry civ without bloodlines is just lame, it’s comparable to an archer civ without bracer (Cumans). Coustilier hp can then be adjusted if needed.

That’s not true at all, a paladin even without BL is way better than a generic FU cavalier. And in the castle age the cavalier upgrade is even better than a generic FU knight.

On top of that, they have the more accessible paladins of the game, with half the cost and being able to click it as soon as they hit imp.

So basically you give them magyars UT. No thanks.

That’s not needed, they already are a top tier water civ.

Just adjust the ratio of trash resources - gold to 1:1.

Not quite. This tech trade range for dmg, because compare to Magyar their CA would lack 2 ATK. Remember, Persians dont have Bracer.

But this would make them viable also on Hybrid maps, not just on Pure Water.

But this is about permanent effect.

They are already viable in that maps, they don’t need a buff.

It’s not needed that it leaves a permanent effect. A bonus or UT just have to have an effect that it’s decent, and that work in the way it’s supposed to be, it doesn’t matter if it’s situational.

But range is what is more important.

Also, they already have good foot archers, and great cav. I get that implement the UT in the WE directly would be better, I agree on that.

But the persians are already a solid civ, they don’t need buffs elsewhere.

This is why I take away Squires from them, to nerf Halbs in exchange. Was thinking also about last Inf Armor, but I felt sorry for those poor Longswords…
This would give them more variety - becuase they could play not just Knights, but CA additionaly.
Persians dont have “good” foot archers. They have “cheap” foot archers :wink:

To me, they are the same words…

Anyway, they don’t need more options onestly. Even if you take away squires, they would still fit their role, a meatshield against cav.

But their reaction time would be lower, so it would be easier to dodge them and kill those pesky Trashbows.

If I could change Persians, I’d swap trashbows with Mahouts, and change Mahouts to also make any attempt to convert an elephant unit have an equal change of converting any unit in the monk’s range. Essentially prevent targeted conversions.

That way a player could mix in a few war elephants and the chances of them being converted would be very low, but if they make mostly war elephants they’ll still most likely be converted.

Very good post, overall I agree with the vast majority of suggestions. Let me share my opinions on each suggestion:

I’ve made a detailed post regarding steppe lancers (since then there have not been any balance changes): Balance discussion on the steppe lancer. For anyone who only wants my suggested balance changes: -Cost decreased from 70 food 45 gold to 65 food 40 gold
-Rate of fire decreased from 2.3 to 2.0
-Speed increased from 1.45 to 1.50
-Elite Upgrade cost changed from 900 food 550 gold to 500 food 650 gold
If you want to argue against this please read my post linked above first

Notice that the unit with the most problems are the longswords and maybe two-handed swordsmen for civs who don’t have access to champions, because champions are overall fine (though some smaller buffs wouldn’t hurt the general balance for sure). For this reason I think the speed increase to 1.0 is just a way too big buff. Read my detailed opinions about longswordsmen here: Buffing long swordsman and their upgrades. Btw in that linked post I forgot to mention a very important thing → long swordsmen can force to take fights because they are strong versus buildings. In other words you must engage versus them with knights if you don’t want your base to get destroyed, and a long sowrdsmen player can easily mix in some spears to make that a very cost effective fight (since got barracks and right blacksmith upgrades). Therefore longswordsmen can be a very strong option against civs with bad archers with my buffs. (aka: Long swordsman, two-handed swordsman, champions gain +1 attack
-Long swordsman, two-handed swordsman, champions gain -1 attack against eagles
-Long swordsman, two-handed swordsman, champion gain 0.05 speed boost (from 0.9 to 0.95))

This one or something similar is heavily needed imo, the other two options are: chivalry nerf or cheap castle bonus nerf. Currently chivalry castle age is way too strong.

Well anyone who has read some of my previous comments here and there should know that I’m against chinese nerfs. But I don’t mind if we try something like this, at most we revert it. I’m only heavily against if it is a bigger nerf.

I agree that magyars need a small eco bonus but nothing too big, this might do it tbh

Can you please explain why this is needed? I’ll support this if you can convince me. Currently I don’t understand.

Portuguese are in a very good spot right now balance wise imo. Handcanoneers need some buff though. I like the feitoria how it is currently tbh, I feel this is completely unnecessary.

Too op for kipchaks, though I agree cumans should get a buff. I’d personally decrease 2nd TC building time by 10-20 seconds.

They are already a great civ with 55% winrate on a lot of maps. Would need to be nerfed elsewhere is exchange for this eco bonus.

I also think it’s too early to determine Sicilians, they seem to do better than Burgundians on several maps

Goths could use Thumb ring.

The maps magyars has a big winrate on have less then a 3% playrate and regularly rotate out of the map pool.

0.95 speed is too fast, this way Celt LS would run like Eagle Scouts. Don’t mind the attack bonus.

I’d rather nerf their eco (like start with 5 vills and -150 food or sth)

I much prefer the official changes in the beta patch.

Magyars don’t need changes.

I much prefer the official changes in the beta patch.

Hard no. FU spam CA? Kipchaks that can already be oppressive if massed? Cumans need something else, they are just super awkward with their niche TC bonus.

The rest is ok.

Edit: I don’t understand your Portuguese change, is it just a Feudal Age feitoria that replaces the market and has better trading prices than Saracens?