Yes, this is so accurate.
This is an idea that occurred to me, I donât know if it will be good but I want to show it to you:
NEW MECHANIC PROPOSAL: NAVAL POPULATION
-Warships use âNaval Populationâ. The population each warship uses is equal to its total resource cost divided by 100.
Fishing Boat: 1 pop, shares pop with land units (as always)
Caravel/Sloop: 4 naval pop
Order Galley: 5 naval pop
Galleon: 6 naval pop
Galleass: 8 naval pop
Monitor: 8 naval pop
Steamer: 9 naval pop
Frigate: 10 naval pop
Ironclad: 11 naval pop
Battleship: 20 naval pop
Etc.
-Each Dock provides 25 naval pop. The maximum limit of naval pop is 100.
-There is no ship build limit, there is only a pop limit, so for example you can build up to 25 Caravels, 16 Galleons, 10 Frigates, and 5 Battleships.
-Battleship related cards also enables to build Battleships.
-European and Non-European civs allied with a Royal House can also build up to 5 Battleships.
-With this new system, maybe the Monitors SHOULD be limited and their âLong-range Bombardment Attackâ should be nerfed. Maybe the monitorâs attack can be nerfed against buildings a bit, ### at the same time buff its attack against ships.
Why am I proposing this idea in this topic? Maybe if warships use a special pop this helps to further differentiate their advantages and disadvantages (for example, use a lot of cheap ships vs. use a few expensive ships), and certain civs can benefit more from using certain types of ships with their cards, etc.
5 Likes
Concerning Natives, this leads into an idea I had at one point as well - that the navies of the Lakota + Hauds would primarily be mercenary, whether through pirates or hired Haida canoes, and that it would have been a good way to implement a mercenary building for them.
Haida canoes should be roughly on-par with the smallest European ships, and mounting swivel guns and other artillery on these gelwa would be an interesting way to give Natives access to artillery ships.
Interestingly, yes, the Haida had artillery on their canoes, and there were instances of the Haida capturing European ships as well.
Implementing these as unique canoes would be fun.
4 Likes
To sum up the communityâs wishes:
-Making a separate naval population slot
-Getting a legit counter system instead of the âbuild bigger boatsâ system
-Give more variety to the warchiefâs fleets by adding mercenary variations of the European vessels.
-Making a boarding mechanic
-Balancing so that ships get to interact more with the land (higher range maybe?)
-More variation between ships (Abilities, ranges and other mechanics)
-Making naval capture a more enticing option economically & strategically, so it does matter if you donât try to take it
-Getting âveteran, guard and imperialâ upgrades for each ship (Extra points if it changes the visuals, like getting armor on the hulls)
As for the ones I didnât catch on this thread:
-Making fishing farms or the ability to repurpose fishing boats (Itâs uncool having to delete 30+ boats just because the fish ran out, it gives xp to the enemy that way)
-Making it so units getting transported by ships increase their attack speed or damage (Ethiopia does this with Ras, but with a card)
-Adding a mechanic so you can choose 1 ship and make it your âstar shipâ; below the broadside buttons you get options to increasingly buff their stats, abilities and whatever other cool things; think of it as the age of mythology civ where for an investment you turn units into heroes, but cooler (Would be fun as Iâd feel more attached to it hahah)
-Giving all fishing ships an attack by default (a crappy one mind you, like all villagers)
-Separating docks between light and heavy vessel docks
-A more specific broadside attack description (How much damage it does, or at least how many rounds they shoot)
Also, slight tangent, I just tested if what is shown below is true:
And yes, they do take less damage, 50% less from buildings to be precise, if you fight an outpost with a galleon, the galleon wins with 10% of itâs health left.
Food for thought.
4 Likes
No. This is a bad idea all-around. The limit on ships isnât for gameplay so much as it is for engine limitations - the water in AoE3 is prone to lag and crashing the game, especially on larger maps with a lot of players.
If necessary, just include all ships under a broad build limit to let players decide how many of what type of ship they want to ##### ### thatâll have to be tweaked from civ to civ, depending on what kinds of ships players want.
No. Make unique ships for the Natives that fulfil their own roles in unique ways. Privateers and Pirate ships are one thing, but the rest of the Native ships should be unique to them. I rather like the idea of the Haida having cannon-armed canoes.
Based on these general images of Haida canoes,
We know that they had sails, and we know these canoes could reach 70 feet or greater, with many capable of carrying up to 50 people or so. With a mounted cannon or an array of swivel guns, they could serve as smaller, faster ships with high rates of fire.
For an amusing, but practical, purpose, the âcrewâ could be replaced by a sea of bobbing helmets, like this. Itâd supply a helpful visual indicator of why the ship has such high ranged resist. Some of these helmets could flair out much further than this, and they are made of dense heartwood from cedar trees.
Examples:
Gelwa Gunner
Light, fast, canoe with a high resistance into ranged attacks.
200 Wood, 200 coin
750 health, 75% ranged resist
11.5 Speed, 26 LoS, 25 Garrison
Can transport land units, and gather from whales and fish.
Special ability: Broadside
Main Attack:
35 Ranged
20 Range
1 RoF
Siege:
15 Siege
22 range
1 RoF
These would be more similar to really small battleships than anything else, armed with a small array of shorter-ranged swivel guns that deal ranged damage instead of siege. A high ranged resist would make them intriguingly good at raiding beaches, though their low siege attack would make them a little less than helpful into buildings. Notably, their attacks lack an AoE.
Gelwa Extraordinare
Heavier Gelwa armed with a single Culverin for long-range attack.
400 Wood, 200 coin
1000 Health, 60% ranged resist
11.5 Speed, 32 LoS, 25 Garrison
Can transport land units
Special Ability: Long-range Bombardment
Attack:
50 Siege
28 Range
2 AoE
3.0 RoF
Named for the culverin mounted on the front of it (the Culverin Extraordinary), the Gelwa Extraordinaire is a long-range siege ship, though notable as still having a decent attack to fight with regardless.
Gelwa Raider
Middling Gelwa armed with a gatling gun.
300 Wood, 200 Coin
800 Health, 60% ranged resist
11.5 Speed, 28 LoS, 25 Garrison
Can transport land units and train infantry and cavalry
Special Ability: Stand Guard
Attack:
30x6 Siege
30 (Stand Guard)
20 Range
2 AoE
4.0 RoF
0.5 RoF (Stand Guard)
With a Gatling Gun as its primary armament, the Raider is a ship that can land on a beach and train units. While beached, the unique special ability Stand Guard may be activated, effectively removing its Gatling Gunâs reload mechanic and allowing it to endless fire as it trains units on the beach. However, it suffers from less range than a normal Gatling Gun and is still a canoe, making it weaker than other Galleon-class ships in outright combat.
Itâs weird that after the implementation of sea treasure in TAD, DE decided that no future water map shall have water treasure. Also another issue with water map is how flat it is, most water map just a long stretch of water with no feature unless map specific like middle island on New England, whale bay in Hispaniola where player can make a blockade on the end of crescent to control it.
Nature feature can also be added on that kind of map, like adding whirlpool unit that deal trample damage in area like the tuck tuck tuck truck except itâs immobile and in water, reef/seaweed that slow ship movement and lower the ship turnrate when it passes through them.
4 Likes
Los barcos concebidos a travĂ©s de alianzas nativas no deben costar poblaciĂłn naval, puesto que lo mejor serĂa tener un lĂmite acumulativo, es decir, entre mĂĄs puestos comerciales nativos mayor lĂmite de barcos. DespuĂ©s de todo las canoas, barcos pirata, catamaranes, Junko wokou y buque de guerra son fruto de un tratado con los nativos.
3 Likes
El galeĂłn deberĂa recibir envĂos militares para hacerlo mĂĄs Ăștil. El GaleĂłn es como una fortaleza en el agua pudiendo defenderse y crear unidades de cuarteles y establos
Iâd also add small boats being able to cross shallows to the list. It would make maps more accessible to fishing boats.
Melee naval combat is a must, and could be part of the basis of a counter system that isnât just bigger boats and buildings win.
Maybe instead of naval population, there could be an upgrade where you get to choose to increase the build limit of only one kind of ship. So you could have options of +1 Frigate, +2 Galeons, or +3 Caravels, etc. That would allow you to have a bit more diversity in unit compositions.
1 Like
I think there needs to be some kind of hero ship that respawns to make water treasures work. If you miscalculate on a land treasure you can run away and heal or if your Explorer goes down, you just go wake them up. If you miscalculate on a water treasure you lose an expensive ship, and even if you win, you have to go back to a dock to heal.
Maybe you could turn a ship into a Flagship when you garrison your explorer on board. Flagships could gain the ability to heal without a dock and have other bonuses like greater line of sight.
Honestly, just adding a hero ship to everyoneâs âexplorerâ thing wouldnât be hard. Just make a weak caravel or similar with a really high bonus into treasure guardians.
Each civ could have a unique one.
An alternative is that the Hero Ships thing could function similar system to AoMâs Atlantean Hero system.
That is, you can make any armed vessels into a Hero/explorerâs ship (limited to a singular hero ship at a time)
i.e. you select the unit (a ship in this case) where youâll find the âDesignate Flagshipâ button (ala âturn into a heroâ button) and then pow! You have just made that selected ship into a âFlagship [insert ship unit here]â complete with Hero aura. T
The term âMan-o-Warâ could also be used instead, such as âMan-o-War Galleonâ for example, as Man-o-war really just meant an armed ship for war, often a nationâs best or most used - this incidently could cover small vessels if thatâs what a civ is limited to, so itâs a little more broader in use.
By having it something that can be designated (and removed) throughout the game (for a price?) it means your Flagship stays relevent. For example whilst your Caravel Flagship has some use early on, it would be more beneficial to remove its privilage and re-designate the Flagship badge to a Frigate to keep it relevent later on.
When a ship is âFlagshipâdâ, they, like Explorers donât die for real, rather (unlike explorers) partially sink, and are out of action until they recover (tending to the bilge pumpsâŠ),
Reason for âHeroâ ships?
- Deal with water treasures in a similar matter to land Explorers - making it a more relatable experience
- Provide you with a âdependableâ, somewhat tanky unit like Explorers/heros
- Potentially bring abilities (such as supportive auras, âchain shotsâ or even Boarding abilities) providing a little more strategy to naval action
Obviously to get the most from this, pre-Asian Dynasties maps with a significant water element could do with with Water Treasures added to them and just general make it more interesting to keep control over the water ways. This could also include some capturable structures like the Euro land maps, for example Sea Forts (these are a thing - Fort Boyard and Murud-Janjira, India for example) and even âstacticâ Whaling Ships give a decent Coin trickle your units are close-by.
3 Likes
Oh I love this idea.
Maybe change the title from civ to civ tho. âMan OâWarâ wouldnât be terribly relevant to non-European civs.
1 Like
Thatâs one way to do it. But linking it to garrisoning an Explorer inside has the advantage of making it the center of attention of early game exploration. Part of the reason water treasures are so neglected is that people are too focused on what their Explorer is doing on land. If you have to put your Explorer on the ship then it becomes the center of attention. It also offers a bit more of an elegant solution to what happens when a ship sinks with an Explorer on board.
One issue Iâm not sure about with invincible ships is what to do about any regular units on board. Should they die? Be injured? Survive but make it take longer to respawn?
The other issue is how to balance across different civs with varying ship strengths. An invincible Battleship is a lot more potent than an invincible War Canoe. Maybe a variable respawn rate/threshold could keep them balanced by making it so a Flagship Battleship takes a very long time to heal up and be revived.
âFlagship _____â would probably be good enough.
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I think itâd be a lot more balance-able if each civ had a specific ship they could upgrade, but unable to beyond that.
IE the Dutch could upgrade a Fluyt, the Ottomans could have a Galley, the Spanish could have a Galleon⊠etc.
This way, while the flagship remains strong and identifiable, it makes it a bit more fair in that the Europeans canât just steamroll everyone else with an invincible battleship, or to ensure the Chinese canât just sit on a shore with a (potentially) invincible Treasure Junk, spamming units.
Itâd likely be a ship with around 1000 health normally, but benefit from Explorer upgrade cards and gain similar bonuses.
For the Hauds + Lakota, Iâd imagine the Haida Gelwa I outlined earlier would (unfortunately) be the best choice, but every other civ has a semi-clear ship they could use.
And this could be the basis for giving each of the Europeans at least one unique ship, around Caravel â Galleon class strength.
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There are a lot of issues with that approach. For one, itâs not very intuitive. A flagship is generally a fairly large and impressive ship so people will assume the biggest ship is the flagship. It wouldnât be apparent that upgrading to a Flagship is only possible for the lowest level of ship. Giving Hauds and Lakota a Haida ship is also very contrived.
It also wouldnât be as helpful at making water treasures useful. If you had to wait until you could construct a specific ship, the game is almost to the point where you arenât focusing on treasures anymore. There are maps like Horn where you start with a Catamaran or Danish Straits where you start with a Dinghy and it would be great to be able to upgrade in a way that makes focusing on the water treasures possible.
Another way to even the playing field would be to give some ships an anti-hero bonus. That would make it so designating a Flagship Battleship could actually make it more vulnerable to taking bonus damage, and maybe not always the most advisable move.
I figured I would start tackling a couple of these suggestions. I tried to implement a counter system first via trainable privateers, but Iâll be looking into some of these other suggestions as well. If anyone is interested you can head over here, Iâd love to get some feedback on how itâs working: Assertive Seawall: Naval Rework
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Thanks for the graphic.
If anything, for me it actually reinforces that Fire Vessels/ships/boats/canoes/whatever should be available to all civs.
You want monitors to counter frigates?