New Civ concept: the Venetians

Ok but wall in such small areas won’t protect you from galleys, at best just from FS. And anyway, in feudal and castle it takes so long to take down a dock.

I don’t think that it’s simply a good bonus, having ships garrison inside the dock is useful, because you can actually save your fishing ships.

Who cares, they are cheap and you can spam them. Once they allow you to generate gold you can just spam them and have them generate gold.

Castles are expensive, and they would cover only an small area because of this.

I was thinking of adding a bonus that make all techs from the TC and dock be researched faster, that way the civ would be able to get more easily techs from the TC to get the +50 gold.

I’m not sure if that should replace that faster buildings though, I like that bonus I believe that it synergies well.

I’m also thinking of changing the +% speed on galleys. Probably I’ll replace it with fish also generate gold, or something else, since people pointed out that it’s still too similar both to the saracens bonus and to their land archer bonus.

I’ll post the updated version soon.

What about this build?

Venetians

CivIcon-Venetians

Bonus:

  • Get +50 gold each time a technology is researched (including age ups).
  • Archery range units are 5/10% faster in feudal/castle age.
  • Docks and barracks cost -50 wood.

Team Bonus:

  • Guilds is 80% cheaper and available in the feudal age.

Unique Technologies:

  • III - Schole: all economic units passively generate +10% gold when dropping resources on buildings nearby monasteries.
    Cost: 300 wood 300 stone, 30 sec

  • IV - Schiavona: infantry units have +30 HP
    Cost: 600 food and 300 gold, 40 sec

Unique Units:

  • C - Stradiots: Light and fast cavalry that can stun enemy units (a stunned enemy can’t neither attack or move). Each unit killed by a stradiot tribute you +1 gold.
    Cost: 80 gold, 14 sec

  • D - Galeass: Heavy ships with high HP and a short gunpowder attack (similar to an hussite wagon) , that can also ram enemy ships. If the ship survive there is a 25% chance of converting that ship. (the ram mechanic is similar to the coustilier).
    Cost: 120 wood 80 gold, 40 sec

Tech Tree:
Barracks: FU champ, halb and condo
Ranges: FU arbs, skirms and HC missing CA and PT
Stables: bloodlines, paladin and hussars missing
Siege: *siege rams and heavy scorps missing’
Dock: demo-line completely missing
Blacksmith: FU
University: FU
Monastery: heresy missing and atonement
Castle: FU
General Eco: gold shaft mining missing

Icon provided by @Seicing.

3 Likes

Seems good. Liked. Either their cav is pretty bad but they have tanky inf and god archers so not problem. Good for water, seems over-average on closed maps, a bit weaker on open by the lack of good cav units. Maybe Stradiot can solve that weakness, but your Venetians are def a hard civ to break out. Maybe something to help with food ans the civ would be above of the mid tier.

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They aren’t that bad on open maps, they have fast archers and they can still do an FC into knights. They knights lack BL, but they can hit castle with a lot of gold quite fast, and then switch into stradiots, which their stats compensate for the lack of BL.

i don’t say is “weak” in open maps. I think they speciallity would be closed maps. Their cav is good in castle but loses power on imperial. Stradiot seems good and easy to spam, but mostly every civ would have a response to this light cavalry unit. If im not bad, the performance of Stradiot would mostly depend of their partners that cover them, pikeman and xbow. They can do very well against cav civs spamming halbs, spaming xbows vs inf, and stradiots vs archers. The civ is very good overall. I think they would deploy well in most all ambients. Def a good example of a civ in my opinion.

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Yes they would be a bit better on close map, and their feudal and castle age would be strong in open maps, but then would have some awkward transition in imp.

Still, they would have a pretty good drush into archers, which was my goal when I design the civ. Is exactly for this reason that I removed BL, they wouldn’t be OP.

The stradiot would be a bit between the knight and the light cav, but it would compensate against other heavy cav with the stun ability, and maybe small attack bonus against knights (like +2/+4…).

Thanks, it means a lot.

1 Like

Then Stradiot would be likeable and usable. The civ flaws are just the imp cavaliers and hussars, apart from that, is perfect.

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Would consider increasing the cheaper docks slightly

Beyond that seems good

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Mmm I don’t know… 100 wood dock is already quite cheap, it’s 2/3 of a fishing ships for free, and it allows you do dock way more earlier.

Also, consider that already with this discount, with a viking ally you get 85 wood docks, which is super cheap.

Thanks.

actually these are the cheapest docks so its fine

1 Like

Yes, the main idea is to dock earlier since you need less wood, and with the wood spared getting an extra fishing ships.

The in feudal, you can basically have a dock for free with the wood spared, which synergies well with the gold bonus, since fletching is basically cheaper, you have the gold cost of 1. 5 galleys for each tech, and you can put extra vills on wood since you need gold much more later on.

Then in castle age you get the advantage by having more numbers and by using their UU, which can board and convert enemy ships.

Also, on nomad they could dock and queue a fishing ship right away, niche but useful ability.

1 Like

A bit of more info on the UU:

Unique Units:

CivIcon-Venetians

Stradiots:

Light and fast cavalry that can stun enemy (a stunned enemy can’t neither attack or move). It costs only gold and each unit that it kills tribute you 1 gold.

Stats:
Base Elite
HP: 90 120
Atk: 8 10 - +2 +4 against knights.
RoF: 2
Speed: 1.45
Armor: 1/2 2/3
Stun ability: the first hit stun the enemy unit which cannot neither move or attack for 5 seconds. It takes 30 seconds to recharge the ability.
Cost: 80 gold, 14 sec
Elite: 800 food 400 gold, 50 sec

Description: a fierce mercenary medium cavalry that excel at hit an run tactics, and at sending in disarray enemy units. During the Italian war they had success even against the French heavy cavalry. The unit charge with a spear and then fight in melee with a warhammer.

Stradiot_Concept_Art

Galeass:

Heavy gunpowder ship with high HP but short range, that can ram and convert enemy ships.

Stats:
Base Elite
HP: 160 220
Atk: 10 12 - +3 +5 vs ships +8 +10 vs buildings
2° Atk: 1 damage on 3 secondary shots fired in sequence
RoF: 3
Range: 4 5
Speed: 1.25 (+50% speed 1.88 while ramming)
Ram Atk: 55 93 melee
Armor: 1/7 2/9
Ram Ability: the ship speed up and deals massive amount of melee damage to the ship targeted. If the ship survive it have 1/3 chances of being converted to your side. It have 60 sec of recharge.
Cost: 120 wood 80 gold, 40 sec
Elite: 700 food 500 gold, 50 sec

Description: a towering ship with a rapid short-range hand-cannon attack. It can ram and board enemy ships to convert them to your side. During the war with the ottomans, such ships were unassailable ships that rained down fire from above, and cut in half their ships.


51f2ec2135a37e11113c07461ab6e494

NOTE: the boarding and ramming ability were actually discarded features from the original AoK beta.

2 Likes

A bit more info on the UT:

III - Schole: all economic units passively generate +10% gold when dropping resources on buildings nearby monasteries. The economic building needs to be at least 3 tiles close to the monastery.
Cost: 300 wood 300 stone, 30 seconds

Description: the school of arts and trades were basically corporations of specific artisans or people coming for a particular geographic location, like the inhabitants of Murano and their glass artisans, or the schiavoni, the inhabitants of the venetian Dalmatia. Those corporations often were centered around the church of their saint patron, and often taxed their members for various reasons, like supporting members with difficulties or paying for expenses of the church and various pieces of arts. By the 1500 those corporations were regulated by the government andwere very rich and prestigious. They often lended forced loans to the government in times of war or other crisis.

IV - Schiavona: infantry units have +30 HP.
*Champions would have 100 HP, halberdiers 90 HP, and condottieri 110 HP.
Cost: 600 food and 300 gold, 40 sec

Description: the schiavona was a heavy basket-hilted sword, that protected the user hand. But in general, this UT is to represent the use of venetians heavy armored infantry. Such armor was often heavy and the government itself payed for much of such armor, in order to arm the sailor and rowers when there was boarding actions. On land, in time of crisis such armor was also lenf to citizens, that supported the more professional condottieri armies, that were also heavily armored.

1 Like

Nice, I live not far from Venice so I always wanted to see Venice among the civilizations of AoE II but I’m afraid that at this point it will never happen … but it’s always nice to dream!

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Thanks. I too live near the city, that’s why I cured this civ design, with the hope that one day they’ll make their way inside the game, which considering the last DLCs, it not that unlikely.

Anyway, I don’t know until where you have read in the topic, but here is the latest version (and the best one too in my opinion) of the civ:

Now a bit more about the history behind the single bonuses:

  • Every technology (including age ups) gives you +50 gold.

Description: Now this may seem obvious, but really it’s not that obvious. Venice of course reached the point were it was called the “Serenissima”, meaning the most serene, this thanks to its wealth. If a discussion between a venetian ambassador and an ottoman dignitary, before Lapanto about the Cyprus problem, the venetian ambassador stated that “the Doge didn’t cared about how many gold coins he had to spend, because he had so many of them that they seem to never end”.
Now, in the mid 1500 all this wealth didn’t came just from trade as people might expect, but also from its artisans. Rich merchants buy up the raw materials and then the good passes from artisans to artisans like an assembly line, and then the final product returned on the market.
The technologies generating gold represents those artisans that with their work generated wealth.

  • Archery range units move +5/10% faster in feudal/castle age.

Description: the venetians since it’s early days fought on foot mainly, both at close at at range. During the early years of the city, they mainly used bows and arrows, coming from their roman legacy. During the middle ages, like in other parts of Italy, the crossbow became predominant, especially on naval warfare, and during the renaissance of course this was replaced by gunpowder weapons. During the fourth crusade, the city fell thanks to the assault of the venetians “fanti de mar”, their marines, that from the ships directly assaulted the walls and towers. Such actions were them repeated several times, during the venetian-turco the venetians used quickly deployed its soldiers from the ships to surprise the ottomans on several field battles.
Now, that I explained the two sides of the bonus, you can better understand it. I chose this bonus both because it’s conveniently not taken by any civ, and because the venetians had a long experience of fighting on foot and at range, even on land, since their soldiers were used to naval warfare, and this justify the choice of buffing all ranged units, since in different periods, the venetians were skilled with all ranged kind of weapons (some reports also mention some kind of javelin, so the elite skirms are also included). The speed instead is justified by their ability to deploy soldiers quickly and fast for making surprise actions and pincer movements.

  • Docks cost -50 wood.

Description: this one is a bit more a bonus of convenience, but it has its historical explanation too. Venice of course was a maritime power, and the city built on water, so it was full of docks. They were expert sailors, skilled at trade as much as warfare. This allowed them to establish a lot of colonies on several cities and ports of the mediterranean, black sea, and even the atlantic. For their services, both civic and militaristic, they often asked not a payment on gold or goods, but they asked a portion of the city and their ports, so to settle there sailors and merchants.
Cheaper docks is meant to represent the spread of the venetian colonies, which brought the republic to control directly great portions of the mediterranean, like Crete, Cyprus, the Eubea and Morea, several Ionian and Aegean islands, the Istra and Dalmatia, other than several colonies on the middle east and black sea.
More docks also means more ships, and the venetians were master in such art, with the arsenal that was the first mass production facility runned by the state, a precursor of the industrial age, and with the capability of producing one ship per day.

NOTE: *This bonus originally also included the barracks too, which would cost 125 wood instead of 175 wood. This was justified by the fact that the arsenalotti, the arsenal workers that also functioned as a town militia and the doge bodyguards, lived inside the arsenal, making it not just a production facility, but also a strong point for Venice.
This bonus was then removed for balance purposes, since their drush into archers of FC seemed already quite good.

  • TB: Guilds are 80% cheaper and available in the feudal age.

Description: as already said, merchants and artisans were the core of Venice economy and wealth, it comes by its own that corporations and guilds formed very early and become quite soon a core element of the city. As already described in the UT, the biggest of those were the schole, which gathered all the artisans of a specific sector. Merchants of course were a core element of the venetian lagoon, even before it became indipendent from the ERE.
Venice almost immediately started gathering the control of all the adriatic trade, between the west and the east, and the north and the south, between the italian peninsula and the balkan peninsula. You could buy and sell good from and to anyone, but you had to do it inside the city of Venice. Either by unfair prices, monopoly, or even military activities and piracy, Venice forced all nearby cities and kingdom to sell their products in their city, using their docks and their market, paying of course the fee to them. All products sold outside the city of Venice in the Adriatic needs the consent of Venice, and the cities that did so had to pay a tax to them, which makes it less profitable.
It comes by itself that being an ally of Venice, or Venice itself was advantageous, since Venice basically controlled the prices.
With such bonus, you get a similar effect, by being able to abuse the market early on by getting better trades, while your opponent gets worse trades.

About the bonus that makes docks cost -50 wood, as I said originally it should have included the barracks too.

What do you guys think?

  • Yes, the bonus should be docks and barracks cost -50 wood
  • No, more gold and faster archers are enough on land maps

0 voters

For the docks, the bonus would probably be best changed to 33% cheaper. Same effect in most situations but now the interaction with Viking TB and any other discount TBs is easier to understand.

Beforehand, if the viking TB goes first your docks cost 77w (22.5 then 50) but if both percentages then it will round to 85.

1 Like

Well, it’s not that it changes much…

The vikings discount isn’t applied before the civ bonus, because the venetian dock cost 100 wood, but I get that there might be confusion…

The reasons why it’s a subtraction and not a percentage, are mainly 2:

  • it helps differentiate the bonus from the vikings one, so that it gives more flavor to the civ.

  • the bonus originally was: docks and barracks cost -50 wood and since I’m still not sure if to include the barracks or not, I prefer to leave the bonus as it is.