New Civ idea - Daylamites

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

I won’t give much explanation for Daylamites. It is very important race/people in History of the Middle East.

The Daylamites are a Middle Eastern civilization in introduced in Age of Empires II: The Fantard Edition. They focus on infantry and monks.

Civilization bonuses

  • Infantry units cost -15 food starting from Dark Age.
  • Militia line attack +6/+9/+12 against infantry in the Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age.
  • Units get 25% less damage (total 50%) from higher elevation.
  • Monks +25 hp and 25% speed (no fervor and sanctity).
  • Team bonus: Assassin is available in castle costing 60 gold (with main civilization upgrades).

Unique units

  • Assassin (light infantry, attack bonus against high gold units)

Unique technologies

  • Turk Mercenaries (Cavalries moves 10% faster).
  • Castle Network (Assassin can build castle with 200 stone cheaper and fire arrow inside it (equal to arbalest)).

Military

Barracks

All technologies and units are open. Eagle Warrior is missing of course.

Archery Range

Hand cannoneer is missing. Other technologies and units are open.

Stable

Paladin and Hussar missing. Other technologies and units are open.

Siege Workshop

Bombard cannon, Onager and heavy scorpion missing.

Castle

Assassin:

Cost: 50 food 25 gold
Training Time: 8, 7 (Elite) seconds
Hit points: 55, 70 (Elite)
Attack: 7, 11 (Elite) melee
Attack bonuses: +8, +12 (Elite) vs units cost more than 50 gold. +2, +3 (Elite) vs Eagle Warrior. +2. +3 (Elite) vs Standart building.
Rate of Fire: 2.0
Melee armor: 0
Pierce armor: 1
Armor classes: Infantry, Unique
Speed: 1.1
Line of Sight: 6
Upgrade cost: 1100 food 650 gold
Upgrade time. 45 seconds

Castle Age Unique Technology:

Turk Mercenaries:

Cost: 200 food 300 gold
Research Time: 30 seconds
Effect: Cavalry units move 10% faster.

Imperial Age Unique Technology:

Castle Network:

Cost: 750 food 400 gold
Research Time: 55 seconds
Effect: Assassin can build castle with 200 stone cheaper and fire arrow inside it (equal to arbalest).

Other technologies and units are open.

Dock

Cannon Galleon is missing. Other technologies and units are open.

Defensive structures

Bombard Tower is missing. Other technologies and units are open.

Research

Monastery

Fervor and sanctity is missing. Other technologies are open.

Blacksmith

Ring archer armor is missing. Other technologies are open.

University

Architecture and Siege engineers are missing. Other technologies are open.

Economy

Town Center

All technologies are open.

Mining Camp

Gold shaft mining is missing.

Lumber Camp

Two-man saw is missing.

Mill

Crop rotation is missing.

Market

All technologies are open.

3 Likes
2

this seems incredibly strong for a bonus that starts in dark age.

so basically they wreck opponents infantry. so how do cavalry civs deal with their spear line? especially since their spears are 10 food cheaper?

so free bonuses that are superior in every way to what is available? yeah can’t see that being busted.

so basically these things have 12 attack with 10 bonus damage vs pretty much anything in the game (because the only units that cost less gold would be some infantry units, and trash units). and they cost 35 food only due to civ bonus. and they move very fast so they can easily close the distance with foot archers.
so how do you fight these cost effectively?

2 Likes
3

It is their only eco bonus. Is 50 food militia OP for being only bonus? It is very strong in Feudal but they don’t have another thing.

This civ is weak against archer civs. Assassin’s +10 bonus damage doesn’t save them against archers especially cav archers. A lot of civs seem nemesis of other civs on paper but in realilty, they can be handled. Maybe I should remove halberdier from tech tree. Without halberdier, it would be fine.

It is better than other monks but I don’t understand why it is busted? Aztec Monks has more hp and 8.5% speed monks isn’t OP I guess.

You could be right about 10% speed on cavalries but it is very historically accurate for Daylamites and I love speed bonuses. I can’t prevent myself from doing this.

4

okay? and what about cav civs which don’t have good archers? or goths?

and what about civs without good archers? like say Bulgarians? or Franks? do you really think it’s fair to pigeon hole cavalry civs into using archers against a civ like this?

not really, because pikes still trade very very well against cavalry.

aztecs have to invest heavily to get the extra HP, whereas this is just free. imagine this civ in arena - they boom, hit castle age, drop a monastery, and already their monks have 45 HP and move 25% faster without having to research anything. how much easier is it going to be for them to collect relics? especially with their cheap spears to ward off enemy scout cavalry?

5

Look, I’m all about new civs an people that suggest their own fan design, but that civ is broken…

You get cheaper militias that already in the dark age can kill enemy militias in 3 hits instead of the usual 10… that alone should be a red flag for you since it’s too strong.

That on the countrary it’s a weak bonus. Most of the times is better to just re-wall a little bit behind, or to place a building behind the wall.

Considering how cheap the unit is, and considering that almost all non-trash units cost more than 30 gold, it would basically be the perfect counter to every unit, unless they don’t take bonus damage from pikes, skirms and hussars.

Again, the idea behind is nice, and doable (you would need to give a special armor to a bunch of units, like letis…) but it’s also demonstrate how you did really plan much ahead, to see if such unit could really be balanced.

Yeah they can die to archers, but they also deal 22 damage to them. If you add some cheap LC (which have full armor) you can counter them too.

I get the idea that it’s basically the cumans bonus, but since you pay for it, you get a better version of it, but still a 10% more on cav is huge. Would it affects just the knight line, or the scout or camel line, then maybe it’s balanced, depending on the cost.

To me, it seems like you did your homework on researching and identifying the historical aspects of the culture that you want to highlight, but you didn’t see how the civ would then behave in the game, especially against other civs.

Do something different, try to fisr list some of the historical aspects that you want to highlight (even some more, so you have some backup) then you think of a way to represent and implement them into the game, and you try to think ahead and see how they would behave in multiple scenarios of the current meta.

6

i didn’t even think about this. their men at arms will just wreck other civs men at arms.

3 Likes
7

And I even just saw that there is a typo, because it’s 3 hits instead of 10.

1 Like
8

I put this on purpose but now I realized it restrict my civ a lot. With Daylamites, everyone must go militia rush and feudal agression because they have no eco bonus and enemy can only walling in dark age because of this +10 bonus.

Now I think militia line +6/+9/+12 vs infantry in Feudal/Castle/Imperial is better. I decide to remove +5 on spear line and give back halberdier.

-10 food on all military units boost scout and skirms more than infantry. I am giving -15 food on only infantries starting from Feudal Age instead of this bonus.

Aztecs or any other civilization has better eco and it can reach castle age before Daylamites. 25 hp and 25% speed help Daylamites catch other great Arena civs in relic wars but Daylamites has neither gunpowder units nor siege units. It won’t be OP Arena civ with this features I think.

In conclusion, I admit my civ design has many flaws but I think military specialist civ with gold unit counter infantry is good idea for AOE2. I certainly say that Assassin is harmonious to game more than OP and weird Obuch.

9

still - that mean’s their feudal age man at arms are killing other men at arms in 4 shots. vs the 8 they would take to die.

good luck to goths vs this civ. or any cavalry civ for that matter that has bad archers.

not only is your assassin cheaper then the obuch, it kills stuff faster then obuch does. it costs 35 food and 25 gold and will do wreck pretty much anything except an archer - and even those it can close the gap with closely with its 1.21 speed.

10

You don’t restrict your civ, opening with a Drush is very common, almost in every game you need to do it.

It’s still a lot. Consider the jaguar warrior, that have a +10 bonus damage vs infantry. You would give a comparable bonus to a cheaper unit that can be spammed from the barracks.

Like, just a +1 in feudal would make your militias kill an enemy one with 2 less hits, which is huge.

Minus 10% good can be balanced, if you think of every possible outcome and intervene if necessary.

Consider that magyars do it with just -15% on just the scout line, saving on militias, scouts, and spears skirms can be a good bonus. Then after testing it you can consider to buff it or nerf it.

Consider that, when browsing new possible Civ bonus, just giving a civ free sanctity and fervor is considered a very strong bonus.

Aztecs have a crezy monk rush, true, but that is mainly to compensate for their lackluster tech tree (they lack cav, halbs, gunpowder and even their arbs lack 2 important techs).

You civs instead have good barracks, stable and ranges overall, so super good monks aren’t really justified.

Also, what is the game plan for such civ on arabia? They start with a Drush, and that is good since they always win against another drush, then you can go scouts, but you aren’t on the level of magyars… and then what?

You go for a castle? For knights? You don’t have an eco lead or any substantial buff to your military, how do you keep your initial advantage?

You need to go for your UU, which is crazy good, but you will need at least a castle, and it takes time to get there. Then you need to mass them (whiis fairly easy) and hope that in the meantime your enemy hasn’t go for imp and is trebbing you down.

This civ in my opinion lack of a clear plan on what it should do good. What would be their meta? Are them a rush civ? A boom civ?

I too have made a fan design of a civ, look at how I made my 2 fan design for comparison, and you’ll see how I try to think ahead on how the civ metà will be:

11

I kinda like the concept of this unit, although it doesn’t really seem to have that much of a drawback for how good it actually is. I mean, this is basically all counter units in one package. So I feel like it should either take bonus damage from spears and skirms, or have some other drawback.

12

You must go archers against Daylamites man-at-arms. They are still very weak against archers.

All infantries beat this Assassin except Huskarl and Teutonic Knight. Archer can beat this Assassin with meatshield like Hussar. Obuch PA reduction is weird because heavy cavalry can never engage Obuch because they become useless after they lose their PA. PA Armor reduction (melee armor reduction is fine) was bad idea and should out of the game.

I thought this civ push enemy with man-at-arms in Feudal Age and in castle age, they will answer crossbow+knight+mangonel or eagle warrior+crossbow+monk with their Assassin.

Assassin lose to longsword and light cavalry but due to their low cost, it seem they don’t die to them as well.

I design Assassin has similiar role as Eagle Warrior in addition they counter Eagle Warrior. On the other hand, Eagles has +2 PA.

Longsword and Assassin is good combination but I must nerf Assassin a little bit maybe. 1 damage reduction 7/11 instead of 8/12. What is your idea about nerfing Assassin.

13

until they mix in skirmishers or archers of their own. then what do you do?

but gasp, this civs infantry SMOKE other civs infantry, so what do you do against Skirmisher + Assassin + Militia line? which by the way - is a very cheap composition since your infantry cost 30 food and 20 gold, you’re assassins are 35 food and 25 gold, and skirms are trash units.

1 Like
14

Tbh I dont think that 55 hp monks that move slower than TKs being that OP

15

the problem is that it makes getting relics incredibly easy for them, as they come straight out of the monastery with better then both techs, which means they are more likely to survive any attacks from your scouts or light cav, and they get to the relics MUCH faster… look how much people complain about fervor and sanctity affecting villagers, and all that does is makes them less likely to die in raids, and still requires getting both techs.

16

I still think you are overselling it a bit tbh, on Arena for example the civ would still be worse than Liths at getting relics. I agree that is strong but doesnt seem busted on paper

17

how? sure their monks don’t come out as fast as Liths, but they move faster automatically, without any research needed.

18

Liths actually have an eco bonus (and btw, they dont have cheaper cav anymore) and also the faster created monks seems better than the extra speed (but maybe Im wrong on that part).

19

But losing your M@A means leaving the daylamites M@A doing what they want in your base while you train archers. Also they could easily add a couple of skirms to further maintain their advantage.

That’s the problem, infantry isn’t used much, very few civs can go infantry, and they could just add cavaliers or arbs, since they seem quite decent and the assassins are super cheap.

But both are easy to counter. Add pikes against scouts and militia against enemies militias, since they have bonus damage.

And it’s a super cheap composition.

Yeah but eagles dies bad against any infantry civ, champs have +8 against them.

Eagles also are strong, but meso civs have them because they completely lack cav. Your civs have quite decent cav, so such strong unit isn’t justified.

Well, immediately increase the gold necessary to achieve the bonus damage. Like put it at 60, so knight line units, monks, siege are affected, but archers no.

20

First of all, thank you everyone. With your assessments, we will achieve compelling and balanced civ that AOE2 need. I personally don’t like both Poles and Bohemians. AOE2 should reveal unknown and important races/peoples/nations instead of fan favourite Poles. Winged Hussars are cool but Poles never be main actor in European History and there is already Lithuanian civ in place of Poles. I hope Devs will start to think this way.

but this civ has generic skirmisher with no eco bonus and lack last archer armor upgrade. What can they do against archers then? With 60 gold, they will omit Keshik, Steppe Lancer, Leitis, Tarkan, Camel, Coustillier and Berber, Portuguese, Polish Knights. Maybe 50 gold is enough because there is no archer unit more than 50 gold except Janissary.

I have a different idea though. Increasing gold cost to 30 would be good and it is historically accurate (Hasan Sabbah gave a lot gold to his follower to assassinate topliners. It is urban legend that Hasan Sabbah achieve eternal loyalty by deceiving his follower into thinking He take them to heaven through hashish. They do assassinate for money as well as worship of their Da’i (inviter (Hasan Sabbah) in Arabic).