Purely hypothetical Ideas for new trash units

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

First I want to menion that I don’t think the Game needs commonly shared new trash units. The base ones we have are fine.
Nevertheless I could think about “regional” or “shared” new trash units that are only available to a few civs that they fit.
The new trashs are generally deigned that they counter specific unit comps some Civs have trouble with and also synergize well with Gold units that currently don’t have a natural composition partner. In my opinion especially the latter one is crucial for a trash unit to be viable.

Shieldman
Trash Infantry with High HP, considerable amount of armor but low attack (potentially small bonus vs eagles + buildings)
Role: Damage soaker in pure infantry comps. Like a mini-huskarl in terms of tankyness against archery but ofc not that tanky against archery, but probably a bit more tanky against everything else. Counters knight/skirm comp.
Available to: Itailians, Teutons, Celts, Slavs, Sicilians, Vikings, Bulgarians, (Turks)

Lightbowman
Trash Archer with reduced range and bonus vs infantry. Has also a considerable amount of Melee armor. Like a mini-slinger, but less versatile. Good against infantry floods and synergizes kinda well with Camel/Siege. Moves considerably faster than other foot archers to keep track.
Available to: Tatars, Chinese, Hindustanis, Khmer, Japanese, Cumans, Saracens, Ethiopians

Chariot
Inspired by my trash version of the ratha. Very fast moving, high firing Chariot unit with bonus against Monks, Camels and Pikes in ranged and bonus vs Siege when in melee. Same range as Archers, but very low pierce attack. Counters Pike/Monk/Siege comps and synergizes well with Elephants.
Available to: Bengalis, Khmer, Malay, Burmese, Persians (Dravidians)

Genitour (yes that name)
Ranged Melee light cavalry with same range as Cav Archers. Fires considerably fast but with low damage. Deals small bonus damage vs cavalry and cavalry archers. Counters the Cav Archer/Hussar Comp. Intended to synergize with a comp of overhauled Hand Cannoneer, adjusted Scorpions and Monks. This makes a very micro intensive combo of units that are designed to control several important spots of the map at once.
Available to: Portuguese, Spanish, Malians + Saracens

I am still working on the exact designs of the units and will post them when I think I have them done. I hope that I also get some Feedback here that I can put in my thoughts + creative Ideas.

5 Likes
2

I like this

Tbh the lightbowman could just be an slinger and Incas could get its unique version after reseaching Andean Sling

2 Likes
3

It is funny and sad that every topic with new ideas have to clearly make emphasis in the hypothetical nature of the post to avoid conservative haters.
OnTopic:

I proposed this exactly unit a long time ago. I think it could be great counter to Militia Line, opening the door to a good Militia-line general buff to make it viable in Castle Age. And a good siege compliment
These are the stats I think t could have:

Feudal Age / Castle Age Upgrade (Elite Shieldman)
HP: 50 / 60
Armor: MA 2 PA 2 / MA 3 PA 3
Attack: 3 / 4 (+2/+3 bonus vs Infantry)
ROF: Same Pikes
Speed: Same Pikes
Cost: 25 F 35 W
TT: 22 sec

I would like to see something like this applied. I think it should have low damage, high RoF and low accuracy. Thumb ring shouldn’t affect them. I wouldn’t give them any attack bonus.

I don’t like it as a trash unit honestly… maybe a regional replace of CA with same role but little stats changes.

I would like just make actual Genitour a regional unit for those civs you mentioned.

2 Likes
4

So my problem with this is i dont think it realistically counters militia all that well. Especially the ths and champ.

In imp it would have 8 attack with 3 bonus damage meaning it would deal 7 damage a swing to a fully upgraded champion. Less to a teuton champion. Meanwhile it would take 11 damage back

5

Also it would attack very slowly

6

When I posted the idea long time ago I made some tests and Shieldman still win, not so hardore like pikes over KTs or Skirms over archers, but still is a trash unit against a gold unit. Surely i would missed something.
Stats could be tweaked but I find the concept itself interesting and possible to apply without huge rebalance issues. What do you think about it?

I imagine this unit capable to hold and just a little faster than militia line, so it can force fights.

7

I feel like the main thing a shieldman should be balanced around is a comp with archers behind it. That’s where a defensive unit with high armor is going to do the most damage, keeping the archers that actually do the damage alive. If the unit on its own already beats the militia line it’s probably too strong.

I’d also be kind of curious about how easy they would be to abuse in combination with knights. Patrol the shieldmen into the pikemen first, then send the knights, slaughter?

3 Likes
8

It’s kinda the Idea behind it. At least my Idea was to make it synergize well with the other infantry units. I designed it to be just a damage soaker basically, nothing else.
And yes the counter mechanic against the Skirm/Knight comp is kinda intended (and it’s also probably the hardest sinple comp to find a way to counter it.
Still, the pure infantry comp is immobile and knights can still just run away from it and try to find different angles/spots to deal damage.
And to counter Infantry there is the Lightbowman actually.

9

O, sorry, I meant to speculate about combining them with knights against pikes, I had a typefart. Corrected myself above. The pikes are going to do almost no damage to these guys so they’re basically stuck, and the knights easily kill them in a few blows.

Things with super high defenses usually combine really well with the biggest damage dealers.

If anything, I feel like this might strenghten the knight and crossbow meta…

10

Probably, but knights actually have comparably low damage output for their cost.
Infantry has the highest dps per cost, at least against the units it is supposed to counter.
That’s why I think it synergizes better with other infnatry.

But also archers I think.

11

After several attempts in Balancing I think I finally find one for the propably “hardest” to balance of the 4 units.
The Genitour.
The decision is to give it melee ranged damage. Why? Because the two unit it counters have low melee armor but considerably high pierce armor in comparison of the others of the same classes: Light Cav + Cav archers. By giving the Genitour ranged melee damage it can specifically designed to counte them but being countered by the other units from the same buildings: Knights and Archers.

(Elite) genitour
Cavalry, Cavalry Archer
60 F 40 W
50 (60) HP
2 Atk (+2 vs Cavalry, +6 (+7) vs Cavalry archers Melee
1.8 RoF
1 Pierce Armor
2 (4) Melee Armor
Range 6 (7)
Speed 1.45
Acc 100 % (affected by ballistics)
2 Minimum range

It’s intended to counter cav archers mostly Ageinst light cav the damage output is kinda ok, but it has some melee armor to tank a bit, meaning the “best strat” against the cav archer / light cav comp is to try micro down the cav archers first and then care about the light cav, to encourage a more active use of the genitour.
Knights and Archers should counter the unit as intended.

(One question I asked myself a lot if it’s good to give it archer + cav archer armor as it’s intended to work well wit HC which are also countered by skirms. Maybe it’s better to give it only the cavalry armor class.

12

The problem with this is it kind of ruins the rock/scissors/paper balance of trash units in the late game when gold runs out

13

Basically every other unit ruins that. But is this bad? Look at water with its perfect counter wheel.

No I actually think the opposite. It’s good that every age has it’s power unit: archer => knight => HCA. This gives the game a natural development. The only “sad” thing about that is that it leads to kinda repetitive gameplay cause all of them also synergize so well with one of the trash units, leading to converge to 3 basically always viable unit comps.
The Idea of this thread is trying to break this repetitive meta stuff with something explicitely designed to counter these meta strats so we are forced to think a bit more outside of the “meta box” we have put ourselves in.

And cause the units are only given to a small selection of civs (that also often underperform) it’s very unlikely it will break the game, just a way to make these civs more interesting to play with and against.

Like the Genitour is only given to Portuguese, Spanish, Malians and Saracens.

14

Eh, it’s a breath of fresh air compared with some of the wacky ideas that get thrown around as if they’re god’s gift to balance and need to be implemented right now! Everyone has ideas and while I’m down for discussion, most of them are not so good that they’ll make it into the game. The OP did well by leading his ideas with a little intellectual humility.

That said, I have trouble having a strong opinion either way on “hypothetical” units, since there’s not much of any tangible metric of assessing the usefulness or strengths/weakness of a unit that is designed with the intent of not actually being included in the game. The more hypothetical something is, the less its (hypothetical) quality can be tested with real metrics. Then again, every unit/design people come up with is “hypothetical” until it actually is included in a mod/game.

It seems like this unit has a lot going for it for a non-gold unit. Infantry bonus, high melee armor and faster moving than its gold-costing counterparts? Kinda seems like you just described a lower-range, goldless version of the Plumed Archer that is better vs melee. So I think this unit’s strengths are at odds with it being a trash unit.

While the other ideas are interesting (particularly Genitour, which I agree should be an Iberian regional unit rather than a TB unit), some I find rather uncompelling. The shieldman is an odd one in terms of trying to find historical precedents, and its role as a front-line damage soaker is already fulfilled by other units, to varying degrees (militia line, TKs, huskarls, even light cav line does ok at this role despite halb weakness)

1 Like
15

Well I think you still got me wrong. The hypothetical aspect wasn’t in respect of the exact design, I actually work on that. But it’s way more complicated than I thought cause of the nature of these units. So I wanted to make a teaser first also to remind myself for “what I actually wanted to accomplish”. The hypothetical is indeed that I just want it for fun. I mean I would really like seeing one of these units in action but yeah as you said

So I have no right to claim that mine would be any better than others. But I have fun thinking about new unit concepts and sharing them regardless if they are implemented one day.

Your’e not wrong. Many of these units have kinda lot going for them which makes the design so hard. I think it can be balanced though if the general damage per shot is in the same ballpark as skirms. Potentially even 2 less range than xbows and/or lower firerate.
When designing it I will orient it on the slinger, making it about as good against infantry but worse against basically everything else. So basically a “trash slinger”. (Though the slinger is already kinda specialised so it’s also an option to make the slinger more versatile in the process.)

I think you will be rather surprised by my design then. I think it’s kinda cool concept but also hard to fit in cause of it’s uniqueness. It’s literally just a big meatshield - probably really strong against skirms, but otherwise just meat to chew on for the opponent - ideal to pair with the kinda “glass cannons” of the spear and militia line.
The complexity with this unit is to make it useful against the skirm/knight comp but not overbuffing them so that all civs which have it can just use it as huskarl replacement for a semi-goth flood. Not that it should be impossible, but I think it would be decrimental to the game if this would become their gameplan.

1 Like
16

So… let’s come to the Shieldman.
The Shieldman was even more complicated than the Genitour cause the intended design just didn’t work. Cause the melee unit target selection is too good. Meaning the units are too clever to make it work, sadly.
The Idea was to make the Shieldman an high HP damage soaker mostly, but if you do it so it will basically not be targeted by the enemy units, meaning it’s just meat hanging around and nobody cares about it.
The only viable solution I came up with that is “justificable” is to make it a super cheap low HP unit like the other infantry units. That way it becomes targeted more often. But it also makes it essential that it has a) half the collision size (so you can fit more in a line) and also b) just half the pop space like karambit. There were a lot of different other Ideas I had but ruled out as it would require to implement new mechanics which I think would be better suited for some UUs in the future:
A) Actively “Shield” nearby units by increasing their stats
B) Take part of the damage dealt to nearby units instead of them
C) Attract enemy units to attack it
D) Go always in front of a formation
… and some other I already forgot.

With the new design there came some difficulties as it is potetially also better for a “semi-goth” flood cause it’s just better spammable and cause of the lower pop efficieny I was forced to increase the HP/cost which also plays in favor of that utility.

(Heavy) Shieldman - Very cheap Infantry unit. Very low and slow attack, but comparably high pierce armor for an infantry. Good against Skirmishers
Occupies only half a population space and can be packed twice as dense in a line as regular infantry.
Infantry
15 F, 10 W
50 (60) HP
1 Atk (+2 vs Archers), Melee
4 Rof
2 Pierce Armor
0 Melee Armor
Speed 0.9

The unit on it’s own is kinda useless (except against skirms) it only gets it’s strength when used together with other units like the militia or archer line by just soaking damage.
The extremely low damage output is necessary otherwise it would counter halbs/pikes which would lead to shieldman + halb dominating full trash wars with these civs. The way proposed it’s softcountered by halbs which makes it an interestig addition to trash wars but you still need the other trash units.

1 Like
17

So, let’s get to the next unit concept. This time potentially the easiest one. The Lightbowman or Composite Bowman or however you wanna name it is just designed to kill enemy infantry, but nothing else BUT infantry. For this reason it has a low base damage and also shorter range than archers. It is very cheap but has meaningful bonus against Infantry.
The low cost makes it also kinda good against monks, as the intended composition partner is camels which are often countered by monks aswell. Because of the camel as comp partner it has quite high speed for an archer unit but not as high that it could keep track with cavalry, just faster than most infantry.
The design was kinda easy as I could use the Slinger as reference and only had to keep track it doesn’t ouperforms slingers in any utility but with the higher speed.

(Elite) Lightbowman (Composite Bowman) - Cheap anti-Infantry archer. Fast, but frail. Available from Castle Age at the archery range.
Archer
30 F, 20 W
20 (25) HP
Atk: 3 pierce, +5 (+7) vs Infantry, +5 (+7) vs condottiero (potential bonus dmg vs rams if necessary vs pike/ram)
RoF: 2
Range: 4
Acc: 70 % (80%)
0 Pierce armor
0 Melee armor (Potentially increase if they don’t perform as good as intended)
Speed: 1.2

18

And I come to the final trash unit concept I had proposed. The Chariot.
The Chariot is inspired by the Ratha but has very specialised usage. The Idea I got is to make it syngergize very well with eles. And Eles in their current design. I also thought about adjusting Eles first and then design Chariots to fit to that hypothetical new eles, but as there are like a million Ways to change Eles I can’t really predict one.

So… The Chariot is intended to be kinda good raiding unit, strong vs monks and pikeman from distance. Deals also considerable damage vs camels but bec of the low HP camels still counter it. The Melee mode of the Chariot is for dealing with Siege.
To perform all of that chariots need to be almost absurdly fast.
That’s a lot of utility in one unit. Which means it needs to have some serious tradeoffs, like being countered by basically everything they aren’t designed against.
The Chariot is quite expensive cause then it synergizes better with the also pop efficient elephant.

The Ratha then could be just the “Gold Version” of the Chariot basically. Instead of having bonus damage vs special unit the Ratha would have mostly base damage. This would normally mean that it would be mostly used as a cav archer type of unit, But I think if we give the melee ratha trample damage we could add an additional utility against cheap mass units.

Enough Spoken, let’s go into it:

(Heavy) Chariot 120 W (Trainable in Ranges)
HP: 35 (45)
Atk ranged: 3 Pierce, + 2 vs camels, + 5 (6) vs spears, + 3 vs monks
Atk melee: 4 (5) melee, + 8 (12) vs siege
ROF: 1.5
Range: 5
Speed: 1.5
Acc: 80 %
Armor: 0/0 Pierce
Armor Classes: Cavalry, Cavalry Archer, Archer
Conversion Resistance

(Elite) Ratha 60 W, 60 G, (14 (10) s training time)
HP: 80 (90)
Atk ranged: 5 (6) Pierce
Atk melee: 11 (14) melee, 1 tile 25% trample damage
ROF: 1.5
Range: 5
Speed: 1.5
Acc: 80 %
Armor: 2(4) Melee / 0 Pierce
Armor Classes: Cavalry, Cavalry Archer, Archer, Unique Unit
Conversion Resistance

If these stats are familiar with you somehow, I used a design I made for fun for a “Trash Ratha” version in a different Thread but adjusted it a bit for this a bit different perspective.

Edit: I had to change the Range, it was shorter than archers which would lead to weird interactions when microing the comp. In the exchange I removed some HP.

19

45 hp and no Rmour for a trash unit that costs 120 resources seems pretty awful

Tbh I domt like your Ratha changes that much either tbh

20

Yeah it’s quite squishy, but super fast. Don’t forget it benefits from bloodlines so it’s 55 / 65 in the aftermath after that.
It has kinda good damage output and high speed for a trash unit that’s why it needs to be that squishy.

Also cause it’s only wood the 120 res is a bit misleading, 120 wood are about as much worth as 80-90 g or even about 75 F at the beginning of castle age.

What do you criticize?