Right-click is broken in melee combat

[Yorok0]

Game Version:

• Build (101.101.32708.0 4381514)
• Platform (Steam)

Issue:

I tested behavior of right-clicked melee units both in DE and HD. In summary - I lost 40 vs 40 cavaliers battle in DE while enemy had 25 units remaining. I won same battle in HD while having 14 units remaining.

Behavior of right-clicked melee units in DE is absurd beyond belief and needs to be fixed as soon as possible, because currently right-click is suicide in group battles and this makes game unplayable for me, because I am used to right-clicking.

Cysion and other developers have promised, that they will keep existing gameplay intact. Because combat is core part of the game, it is especially important to preserve existing combat behaviors, including right-clicking. This allows players to keep on playing like they have used to and love to play.

And very important - it would be good, when no one mentions patrol in this topic. This topic is about right-click behavior being broken and this is not related to patrol at all. They are separate methods of doing combat. I am tired of getting suggestions to use patrol, while I have managed my combats very well so far in previous versions of the game by right-clicking.

[Neros1700]

I just ran a single test and got a victory with 7 of my units remaining, I will run this a few more times and see if there is any significant pattern.

[Yorok0]

Thanks for looking into this! I am surprised you got such a result.

Could you try to test in my testing scenario as well to see, whether there is a difference in game builds causing issues for me?
Battle command test.txt (247.7 KB)
Rename file extension to “aoe2scenario”.
Scenario contains different sized mirror battle arrangements for cavaliers and champions. There is also an arbalesters battle arrangement, but this does not matter for melee unit testing.

I used default standard difficulty for testing but difficulty did not seemed to alter results significantly.
I constantly lose by 24-25 units in 40v40 cavaliers battle by right-clicking.

[Neros1700]

I did a handful of runs on my own scenario and yours.
AI set to extreme and map set revealed, everything else was defaults.

My scenario - cavalier_clash.txt (2.2 KB)
win 7
win 25
win 18
win 21

Your scenario
win 11
win 6
win 11
lost 4

The main thing i noticed during those runs was that the AI sometimes pulls units away, which can sometimes end up with them kiting multiple attackers around which gives them an advantage, but other times they just go face to face.

So to me there doesn’t appear to be anything wrong with the attack command, it just acts differently because of the AI.

[Yorok0]

Did you right-click on central front row unit in enemy army? I lose every battle in my scenario by a lot when right-clicking.
Also it doesn’t appear to be affected by enemy units, because my units tend to run around and be idle regardless of what enemy units are doing.

[Neros1700]

My scenario has an attack move trigger for both teams targeting a single unit on the other team (unless i messed it up)

[Yorok0]

Well, my issue has been from the start about right-click being broken. Attack-move/patrol works much better in DE, but I already know that.
I would like, that right-click works similarly to HD. My video clearly shows the difference between HD and DE right-click and how broken DE right-click is. I don’t want to patrol, really. Why can’t the right-click work like it has worked for 20 years?

In AOC I win in 40v40 battle with both patrol and right-click against AI by 24-25 units but that is mainly because of AI’s horrible unit management.

[ShadowKhaash]

It seems to me right-clicking a single unit has always been a way to say “attack this particular unit”, but while before your units gave up immediately and started attacking others now they really try to get to that one enemy even if they can’t or it takes them ages.
For ranged units that’s usually fine, but for melee in large engagements the results are as above.

I’m not sure a behaviour like the HD is really a good thing (like, what if i’m trying to get my hussars to kill a monk or a king in the middle of the enemy units? i don’t want them to get distracted and i don’t care if they die in the meantime). Attack move is probably a very good way to sidestep the problem you’re having but i understand that being forced to use it is not ideal.

[Dudu23119407]

I’m an AOE1 ROR veteran and the right click is always working “properly” (to me) that my units always follow my command to attack the target and ignore everything else, even if they are stuck. Since there is no patrol in AOE1, in normal combat we always target multiple units, and have to choose the target wisely so the unit get the best attacking angle.

So I haven’t noticed this is a thing in AOE2 (according to @OwnAirplane3203). As @ShadowKhaash said I likely will be surprised and open a bug report if I command my paladins to attack the king, but they go attacking the halb in front.

[Yorok0]

I tested right-click in your scenario and got from it some very interesting results. My scenario provided for each testing run very similar battle collision, but your test had AI army attack-moving from angle, which gave some variance to results.

In each test run I selected all my units and right-clicked on single enemy unit. On different runs I right-clicked on different units. -23 means that AI units won by 23 an +14 means that right-clicked units won by 14.
Test results: -23, -31, -29, +19, +7, +6, +3, -20, -7, +7, +14, -27
Sorted test results: -31, -29, -27, -23, -20, -7, +3, +6, +7, +7, +14, +19

Based on test results and my observations it becomes clear, that battles generally went one way from the following:

1. Right-clicked units got completely obliterated by losing by 20+ units
2. Right-clicked units behaved much better in battle and generally won by 1-10 units

In those test runs, where right-clicked units got obliterated, same thing happened every time - they formed a strange flock, which ran around enemy units, seemingly trying to reach some enemy unit, but not succeeding. Clear example of this behavior can be observed from first part of my video in original post of this topic.
In case that right-clicked units did not form such flock and instead spreaded normally between enemy units, they performed much better, like other test results show.

Based on those tests it can be safely concluded, that right-click is designed to behave the same as it has behaved in AOC/HD. Only very serious problem is this strange flocking behavior, which is probably caused by some bug(s) in pathfinding and which will hopefully be fixed

I could also create and post video presenting different behaviors and corresponding results of right-clicked units, but it is probably easily reproducible by you anyway?

@ShadowKhaash

It seems to me right-clicking a single unit has always been a way to say “attack this particular unit”, but while before your units gave up immediately and started attacking others now they really try to get to that one enemy even if they can’t or it takes them ages.

Where did you take this? Right-click has always worked in AOE 2 so, that attacking groups is possible with it. Even in first Wallace scenario narrator teaches new player to right-click on enemy group - “Just click your soldiers and RIGHT-click the red english soldiers to attack”. From there every observant player learns, that right-click works well for grouped combat. This is kindergarten level basics in AOE 2. How could you forget? Too much patrolling probably

@ShadowKhaash

I’m not sure a behaviour like the HD is really a good thing (like, what if i’m trying to get my hussars to kill a monk or a king in the middle of the enemy units? i don’t want them to get distracted and i don’t care if they die in the meantime).

Not only HD. Whole AOE 2 history, 20 years. Core part of AOE 2 gameplay. Test for yourself in AOC scenario editor, if you don’t believe me. Line up 40 vs 40 mirrored melee units, right-click and watch.
I have managed to kill all kinds of surrounded enemy units with right-click. Especially mangonels. Sometimes it happens in HD, that my unit instead attacks some other enemy unit, but then I order him again to attack intended target and then he obeys. It is a minor annoyance sometimes.

@Zatekusen

I’m an AOE1 ROR veteran and the right click is always working “properly” (to me) that my units always follow my command to attack the target and ignore everything else, even if they are stuck.

I help developers to preserve AOE 2 core gameplay in right-click aspect, which has been in game for 20 years. This allows people to keep on playing AOE 2 in DE like they love. If you don’t like this fundamental AOE 2 gameplay, then you can always keep on playing AOE 1.

[xFenrir95]

IMO the behavior in the HD Version is bugged and now in DE its fixed. I remember that i did not get important villager kills in HD because of Scouts retargeting nearby units instead of the villager i clicked. Same goes for important kills on units like Onagers, Rams, Trebs or even kings. This is now much better and should stay.

[Yorok0]

What exactly is better for you? Right-clicked units still try to spread between enemy units and sometimes prefer to attack closer enemy unit instead of targeted enemy unit. I have done tests in AOC, HD and DE, I see the similarities.
Only really big difference is that they sometimes fixate on reaching unreachable enemy unit, which causes them to run around in flock without damaging any enemy unit. I don’t see this benefiting anyone.

Have you tested right-click extensively both in HD and DE? Are you sure, that units actually retarget less? I managed to kill onagers, rams, trebs easily in group battle situations in HD.

Have you encountered flocking behavior? For me it seems, that if flocking behavior is fixed, then right-click works pretty much the same as in previous versions of the game. It can be concluded from my tests in Neros scenario, where non-flocked battles ended with reasonable results.

I am honestly surprised, that you find behavior of right-clicked units so much different between HD and DE, expect flocking, which does not benefit anyone and only happens sometimes as a glitch.

[ShadowKhaash]

@OwnAirplane3203

This is kindergarten level basics in AOE 2. How could you forget? Too much patrolling probably

I’ve never ever used patrolling and i hate that we have to use like that a feature that is inteded for completely different uses.
Personally i think that right-clicking should work like in DE with units trying to focus on a single target (with some fixes to the pathfinding and to the flocking you mentioned), while attack move can be used to deal with large groups (i’ve been using it and it seems to be working quite well against AI armies) and patrolling should be only used to set up patrols

@OwnAirplane3203

I help developers to preserve AOE 2 core gameplay in right-click aspect, which has been in game for 20 years. This allows people to keep on playing AOE 2 in DE like they love. If you don’t like this fundamental AOE 2 gameplay, then you can always keep on playing AOE 1.

I can understand the change may be disorienting but is this really a “core gameplay aspect” that shouldn’t be ever changed? Especially since i suspect that the shift is more an indirect result of the pathfinding changes and not a planned and discussed dev choice.

[Yorok0]

@ShadowKhaash

Personally i think that right-clicking should work like in DE with units trying to focus on a single target (with some fixes to the pathfinding and to the flocking you mentioned), while attack move can be used to deal with large groups

I can’t agree here and find it to be a too big change for right-click.
Currently both right-click (except flocking bug) and attack-move can be used for group battles, but there are quite big differences between them. I quote differences I posted in other topic (patrol and attack-move are pretty analogous) and like you can see, there are quite a few of them.

@OwnAirplane3203

I prefer right-clicking, because this gives me more control. I can direct my units towards enemy units I want them to fight instead of just fighting everyone on the path like with patrol. Also I like that right-clicked units will just stand where they are after combat instead of moving to patrol/attack-move destination. Right-clicked units also ignore buildings, which is a plus. Right-click is easier to do than patrol/attack-move (single right-click vs keypress+left-click).

So changing right-click behavior from single/group target to strictly single target would remove right-click specific group battle functionality from game and this would be a serious loss for people like me, who prefer it.

I personally have not had too much trouble with attacking specific targets with right-click, but if very strict specific-target attack functionality is needed, then it might perhaps be added to the game with double-right-click. So single-right-click would issue a more relaxed group target attacking behavior, while double-right-click would issue strict single target attacking behavior.

@ShadowKhaash

I can understand the change may be disorienting but is this really a “core gameplay aspect” that shouldn’t be ever changed? Especially since i suspect that the shift is more an indirect result of the pathfinding changes and not a planned and discussed dev choice.

For me it is important. Everyone probably has some parts of the game, that are valuable to him and which he would like to remain unchanged. IMO remaster shouldn’t radically change gameplay aspects, especially core aspects, like combat. It should generally remain as the same game.

What “shift” are you exactly talking about?

[Yorok0]

I did some more testing and it appears, that right-clicked units in AOC/HD have much larger area near target in which they search for enemy units compared to DE.

In AOC/HD, if I right-click on far target, then units will ignore nearby enemy units while heading towards target. But if the target is reasonably close, then units will search for all nearby enemy units. This makes it very suitable for grouped combat, because even in case of bigger groups all units will immediately attack all enemy units in group.

In DE however right-clicked units will try to get very close to target before searching for nearby enemy units. This means that in DE group battles enemy units have much opportunity to damage my units who try to get near target. This causes flocking behavior, when my units try to reach target during which time enemy units damage them and this ends with massive losses. It is easy to see, that this behavior makes right-click unusable in group battles.

I suggest to:

1. Change normal right-click behavior back to AOC/HD version in order to support using it for group battles and preserve behavior of 20 years
2. Bind current right-click behavior to double-right-click in order to support using it for strictly attacking specific targets while ignoring nearby enemy units

Maybe it could also be configurable in options, whether normal right-click favors group (AOC/HD) or single (current DE) targets.

This way both behaviors would be supported by game.

[StepS7578]

Thank you, we are currently working on an update to the right-clicking mechanic.

[Yorok0]

Thank you so much for information that you guys are indeed working on it I have been so worried about it and it brings great relief to know, that issue is not being ignored/postponed .

Would be great if you could somehow support both single and group target behaviors for right-click.
I am so used to previous group target behavior, but plenty of people want to strictly target specific units.

[SageFeather7878]

This topic is about right -click behavior being broken and this is not related to patrol at all. They are separate methods of clicker counter doing combat . I tested behavior of right -clicked melee units both in DE and HD. In summary - I lost 40 vs 40 cavaliers battle in DE while enemy had 25 units …

[IkoKnight]

Hi @SageFeather7878 !

This does not happen in our tests, can you provide a replay?

Thanks!