What is the point about most of top players don’t think Japan is the best…
Many people were also shouting Sweden is nothing when pro plays against them.
From the previous version about Sweden power in different level.
This is balance game or not? Sure it is not, only some guys don’t want Sweden to be nerfed to a normal tier and use top player as shield.
*I didn’t say Japan is the best or not in this comment.
You can talk about it but your assertions will be wrong.
@firstaim7016 Why do you quote me, i wasn’t talking to you.
This is public forum everyone can quote others reply, if you don’t like you can send message to the guy you only want to talk.
It is funny that a guy needs to be the best player to prove his assertions is correct.
So balance team can be dismissed.
IF you are the best player, you are just an arrogant guy, if you aren’t, I don’t know why you are talking here also.
Don’t say I’m wrong, but explain what’s wrong and why.
It’s nothing more than a criticism unless you experiment yourself like me or disclose the numbers.
Anyone who says they don’t need a nerf about Japan ignores the power of Japan and says it’s just because the people who deal with Japan aren’t good at it.
Don’t you think it’s wrong?
If not, share your 1vs1 supremacy ELO or replay.
Your arguments will be more convincing, depending on how much more you have easily dealt with Japan.
If only Ashigaru were powerful, I would not have written this thread.
Japan in 1vs1 supremacy is just powerful! Their units and resources from shrines, monks, etc., Japan is made up of irrationality.
How come you can be so serious facing a guy is not going to speaking something not make sense and unreasonable.
@firstaim7016 Meh… ofc you need a decent level to talk about balance, you don’t need to be THE best player but if none of the top 10 are agree with your statement, logic would have you wrong. Maybe japan is strong vs your civ pool, maybe you play against them in the wrong way.
@WiryScissors465 you are wrong because data said you are wrong (or at least, data i have). Here we can see the winrate of all civ and the average extra PR players of the civ have (i don’t know if i am clear so i am gona take an exemple : aztek has 55% winrate but aztek player has +0.6 PR on average, because ofc if you are better than your opponent, your winrate would be superior even if you play a bottom civ).
Those data are based on esoc ladder from 2017 to 2020.
So at this point, based on data and opinion of the very top players, japan don’t seem op, maybe they are but i can’t see evidance, and based on the “remove a civ” poll, we know than japan is a disliked civ (to talk about my own opinon, japan was my second vote after lakota). So if you dislike a civ, losing against them is not the same as losing against an other one (we are all biased, me first).
I don’t deny your statement all but as my figure showed, Sweden was ok in top level but absolutely not except top level. We can not say this is balance game.
So only if the players don’t have good skill as pro and they need to suffer a unbalance game, that is only selfish statement for the guys don’t want to get any influence.
However I also exclude newbie to talk about balance. For me the definition for noob is they have already known the gameplay procedure, only their APM not that good, forecast not that good, doesn’t mean their concept and logic is bad.
A balance adjustment will affect pro and med/noob, this is linked but not conflict.
On the other hand, if only me face a civ and complain this civ, sure this will be my problem may be play in the wrong way as you said. However if this is not only me but many guys are also complaining the same issues, sure this is not personal but group problem.
I don’t know your level and this is not my point, in case you insist only the top corner of pyramid those players have right to talk about balance, that’s your opinion. For me this is just closing the eye, not facing the real situation how messy under level is.
The second logic in defending Japan is winrate.
But that doesn’t explain how many 1400+ users meet Japan countless times. There are many people who play Japan, whether they are good or not.
The best players will have a high win rate even if they play the Netherlands or Land Portugal. If so, the opposite could be possible.
And that doesn’t even explain the nerf Sweden received in this patch. Sweden has not already received such a good reputation in the 1vs1 supremacy. Why did it get such a serious nerf?
It is now in 2021 and DE was launched on October 15th, 2020. Bring the current data There were only 500 players, and the past data, which has a different balance from now, is meaningless now.
So are you the best player? You act like the best player, but you don’t prove to be the best player. Don’t impersonate and prove your skills.
And refute that power that Japan can easily have.
Everybody can talk about balance, just don’t be affirmatif. Again, if none of the top players are agree with you, who do you think is most likely to be right?
If you balance the game for 1400 elo players, you will kill japan at high level.
If your winrate is 70% with civ X and 95% with civ Y, both are hight winrate but definitly not the same. On RE, iro and india had like 57% winrate overall and spain/dutch/port 43%.
Japan was better before DE and we know japan is not the best civ in term of winrate (lakota and india are the 2 best civ, that’s why those 2 civ was “nerfed”, i don’t have acces to thoses data myself)
I don’t need to be the best player to read comment from the best players. Here What would you change of this TIER LIST? - ESOCommunity you have the tier list of many players and none of the top players think than japan is op (moslty tier A, sometime S but never alone).
Japan is just shit in term of design (like sweden and inca imo), they don’t need to be nerf but to be redesigned (like sweden is being i guess). But i don’t think it will happend with japan
The reason Japan’s winrate is mediocre is just because people play Japan a lot, whether they’re good or bad.
India and Lakota were nerfed, but Japan never received a nerf except that the Shogun’s HP was reduced.
After all, nothing has changed in Japan then or now.
But why are you talking like I can’t beat Japan because of my lack of skills? I have shown and proved the irrationality of Japan, but not all those who disagree with my opinion. It’s not convincing to say it that way.
Sadly, your arguments are being refuted in your own words.
If japan was op as you think they are, why none of the top players are agree with you?
That’s really funny.
There are many people who don’t exist here and agree with me. This isn’t the only place where people talk about games.
I would rather ask. Aztecs and Russia are called Japanese counters. And they have a threatening early attack. But why do they need a buff?
China’s aquabuses and cavalry are very intimidating and if they run a successful FF build, it’s hard to stop them. But why does China need a buff?
But none of them are good players, again, if you play in the wrong way, ofc japan is op, but that’s your fault. If there are 250 peaples with 1000 elo which think than japan is op, their opinion have less value than the top players, just because they don’t have the knowledge to talk about it (they can but it’s irrelevent).
They need buff because behind their rush, they suck. Japan is quite slow early age 2 so you can hurt them at the right timing, but you can’t do that vs most of others civ.
Also, the very top players (and i think most of player with 1500+elo) are agree to said those 2 civ are weak. No reason to think the opposite thought. Those civ need to be buff but not their rush.
Because most of the top players think china is weak, the reason is because they are too slow early age 2.
Those who do well do well with weak civ. It makes no sense that they should be the benchmark for balance.
They make good use of the flaws in civilization design. If everyone plays like them, you don’t have to go through the balance patch anymore.
But the reality is not so I tell you once again.
Show yourself what you have come from experience, and don’t contradict my opinion by borrowing the mouth of someone who is good at it. Show evidence, experiment, and refute yourself like me.
It is clearly wrong to have the same ability as a veteran upgrade with a single card.
Apart from that, the bonuses added to units in Japan are too strong.
What better prove can i put on the table than statistic and expert opinion. When i am talking about a subject, i don’t talk about my personnal experience, I read expert opinions and i trie to found the degree of consensus there are on the subject. How my personal experience can matter about a subject i don’t know about?
It is wrong to speak without first-hand experience. Japan is overly undervalued and the many bonuses they have cannot be said to be their personality.
Can you refute what I am saying without knowing which strategy to use against which civilization?
At least 1400+ players are the good players you are talking about. Just because they don’t all argue that Japan is OP doesn’t mean that all Japan is weak. They say Japan is not a perfect civilization, but they have never objected to the opinion that it should be nerfed.
I keep talking. Experiment for yourself, show the numbers and refute them. If you can’t prove you are a top player, don’t use their words to defend the flaws in your logic.
