Cultural appropriation includes“三眼铳”“武钢车”“三弓床弩”，These weapons are all used by 100% Chinese people.
Sorry for getting involved in the argument , but some mistake I should point out some of your misconceptions.
They were still both Tangut peoples of the same origin
The Tangut people were nomads from the northern Himalayan region. The Xi Xia kingdom and Jin dynasties they established were two contemporaneous and independent states.
No Chinese person likes the Jin Dynasty, and the Jin Dynasty involved a great deal of cultural appropriation.
As the Chinese players I know, they most don’t like Jin Dynasty have ZhanMa swordman bcs it’s totally Song Dynasty thing, but they like others such iron pagoda, and other north China thing. Historically, the Jin Dynasty did indeed study and improve the Song Dynasty’s gunpowder weapons.
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Even the armor and horse armor used by the Iron Pagoda cavalry were Chinese armor. If the Iron Pagoda used this armor, what would the Chinese people of the Song Dynasty wear when the Song Dynasty DLC is made later?
Chinese players are most dissatisfied with the price of the DLC and not knowing whether Chinese civilization has received these new units that are more historically accurate.
this post can introduce more historical background.
Jin dynasty as a highly Sinicized nomadic regime use Chinese armor is OK. BCS losing the horse-breeding land Sony dynasty have to trading horse with tea from DaLi ,that’s why ZhuXi have a tec call DaLi horse.
That’s how Yue Fei’s cavalry look like.
Thanks for the correction. But let me be clear that my point was the inclusion of peoples akin in cultural practices and heritage is a good thing rather than repeatedly feature more of the same. As in, I would rather we get the Jin than another Chinese civilization so we may explore other cultural facets in our world. In that regard, the Jin, Jurchen, Tangut peoples such as the ones that would form the Qing are underrepresented and I gladly welcome their inclusion above making variants of existing peoples already.
You say that but @callyourname is clearly pissed off that the Jin feature units like the Iron Pagoda because they used “Chinese armour” as seen in this complaint below;
This is coming from the same guy that believes the Jin are an extinct culture (presumably unworthy of being featured as a civilization?) and my point was to make out that they, alongside cultural kin like other Jurchen peoples and those that would become the Qing are massively relevant and not an extinct meaningless group. He seeks to dismantle their influence on Chinese history, to claim it as his own rather than accept that these settled, nomadic peoples have absolutely shaped Chinese culture.
It is exactly because they had an influence on Chinese culture, that despite being effectively gone as kingdoms, states and empires, that it is good we get civilizations on these “extinct” cultures. Because it allows us to grow and learn and better understand the world, rather than blindly believe that a monoculture dominated all and had no influences from anyone. Nationalist opinions like this gets you no where, and above all, these games ought to try and educate people in their depictions of civilizations that people don’t usually learn about.
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Answer my question，，Cultural appropriation includes“三眼铳”“武钢车”“三弓床弩”，These weapons are all used by 100% Chinese people.
I mean, if the Iron Pagoda used this armor, then what kind of armor did the Song Dynasty army use?
This is not a question. You’re correct that they are depicting Chinese units. The game, AoE4 does this with other civilizations too. I would rather they don’t, but frankly, this is a variant and they are already cutting corners by reusing assets, so they are already not doing what I would prefer.
If I had my way, they’d make this civilization from scratch featuring Jin only attributes. Inaccuracy in portrayal of armour is common unfortunately. The Chinese and ZXL for instance use Qing-esque armour on Knights and Palace Guards in Imperial Age, which is anachronistic for the game’s time period. It is just a case of a game studio not having the best historical research on the subject.
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What the hell is this? It’s studio armor. Like the kind of armor Europeans make from synthetic foam.
Don’t post something if you don’t have a reconstructed version. The image you posted is just a concept art.
this guy more professional than me as an amateur
bro, this is information from 30 years ago, and many of the viewpoints in this book are wrong.
Furthermore, it’s still just concept art, without any detailed description of the armor. If you’re unfamiliar with these things, don’t waste your time here. You should buy Gong Jian’s new book,中国甲胄史-龚剑
If you already have the answer, then why are you still arguing here? You should post the correct restoration diagrams of the armor that you know. After all, presenting the correct information to all foreigners who are unclear about Chinese history is more important than winning an argument.
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Yes, according to them and the Age of Empires wiki, it’s not a variant civ and is a 100% new civilization, but we have to wait until they’re released to find out how different they are from the nomadic civilizations (Mongols/Golden Horde)…
Yes, it’s part of the new civilization… they train new horses in their Grasslands UB, which can be turned into any cavalry for free…
I suppose they’ll include them as a variant of this civilization, since the Jin became independent from the Liao…
It’s because of their nomadic origins…
For me it’s quite cheap, although I’m sure they’ll lower the price even more later… and yes, this is what 3K should have been…
Yes, they still owe us a DLC like that…
Yes, but without a campaign, since the DLC was mostly focused on 3K, which is why it was so criticized…
Yes, that’s true…it’s not bad per se, just a bit anachronistic, since they only became sedentary during the Qing dynasty…
Jin Dynasty, Vikings and Aztecs?…
Yes, mainly Feudal Age Chinese (since it’s during the Song dynasty)…
Sure, they’ll be like the Chinese we know, but replacing some gunpowder UUs with earlier versions of them (like the Grenadier in Castle Age like Zhu Xi) or even new UUs we haven’t seen yet (Liao Dao Swordsmen, for example)… I’m looking at the wiki and in principle we could use all the Chinese UUs in the campaign. We could even see some allied Buddhist temples using Zhu Xi variant civ and have to protect them from Jin attackers…
Yes, we must remember that we can play from both sides (at first attacking like the Jin dynasty and then defending like the Song Chinese under Yue Fei)…
I don’t think so. Manchu is practically extinct, so they’ll probably reuse the Chinese voices…
Yes, Age of Empires 4 already has regional units, so it wouldn’t be a problem if the Bee Nest were another regional unit…
Of course, many more civs are coming that will have regional units…
Because that’s what we have the main Chinese for…
It comes out to about US$6.37 for me…
Yes, maybe…
Yes, they still owe us a DLC like that for AoE 2… we want to play with Yue Fei and the Jin-Song Wars in AoE 2 too…
Of course, that’s true…
I think there’s a misunderstanding here:
Creating a civilization for Age of Empires, any Age of Empires game, isn’t an endorsement or apology letter of that civilization. In fact, this is a “Role-Playing Game”, and in every RPG there can sometimes be villains and heroes, father and mother; or in this case, “English and French”.
Making the Jin a playable civilization will also allow you to “defeat them” in multiplayer with the Chinese (if you happen to be playing against them), or play the villain role if you want to use them.
If we’re talking about historical civilization rivalries in games, there’s the English vs French, Ottomans vs Bizantines, the Incas vs the Mapuches (Peruvians vs Chileans), the USA and Mexico (in AoE3), and everything is perfectly normal.
In fact, it is a great joy that they do not consider Jin a Chinese variant, but an original civilization, thus saying that it does not derive from China, because the variants so far have had some connection with the civilization from which they derive (The Templars originated from French knights, Tuqhlaq was a Dynasty of the Delhi Sultanate, Sengoku was a Japanese period), and this one does not.
Or like Civs that doesn´t even use the organ cannon in their lifetime, but that become their unique unit…
Yeah, i talked about Portugal.
Please devs, don´t make the same mistake of AoE3 and AoE2, and make a Portugal without Ribauldoquins.
I even make a parody about that: " Ribauldoquinopia Concept [Portuguese Origins]"
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Honestly, I’d enjoy playing as the Jin or fighting against them either way. But here’s the weird part: if the original Chinese civ (including the Song) doesn’t get new units to counter the Jin, we’ll see classic Song units appearing in the enemy’s army.
That feels just as bizarre as fielding an English army to fight against a French army equipped with Longbowmen. That’s pretty odd!
That’s why I strongly suggest the devs consider adding unique units—like the Zhanma Swordsmen and Shenbi bowmen — to both the original Chinese civ and Zhuxi’s Legacy.
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