Just give me Ainus and Inuits already
Maybe Evenkis and Matagis too
I think you were looking for a post made by @OriginalKnot717, @OperaticShip743 or @AssertiveWall20 if I recall correctly. This is one is about Legacy Natives: new and old technologies. Or I think you were mislead by the title, but check the first post
There are a few topics about how to improve natives overall and suggestions for new natives. I believe someone posted that link here once a few months ago, check it out! That are some great suggestions there but it’s been a few weeks since they are not on the front page.
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This is the forum you are looking for:
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Maybe they could add back the Aztec settlements from base AoE3 but under the Tlaxcala name, or even a new Tlaxcala settlement with new units.
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Heey @SimilarOwl0320, I’m sorry but we don’t share our plans/ideas publicly like this.
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No problem!
20 chars of requirement
With this we could assume that they have many plans, but are not allowed to share them by rules or policies of some kind.
However, many of us have been asking for at least some indication that there are big plans for the game and our contributions and ideas deposited in the forums are not a waste of time. I would expect the game to continue at the rate it is going for at least another 4-5 years.
I had another look over Lenape, and I think with some very minor adjustments they might actually be ok for play on regular maps.
The Lenape Rifleman: 90f 30c for a strong skirmisher with a charged ability. Build limit of 10. It has a higher attack but less range and hp than a Cherokee Rifleman, so in the end it may not be so overpowered. The cost makes it easy to macro for if a bit expensive, although the spread implies a musket unit which is mildly confusing.
Lenape Villager: 100f for a vil, build limit of 6. As far as I can tell, it’s just a normal villager except it doesn’t cost pop space which is huge. Also unlike the other TP vils (Cree and Berber) they can be built in age 1. One or both of these may have to be changed before it’s balanced to be released, however I’m not 100% sure about that; I think it’s still an open question how strong that would be in a real pvp game.
Tech 1: 400w 200c for +30% gather rate at Mills and the like. That’s an obviously strong effect, but it’s specific and expensive. Maybe the cost could be reduced by 100w, but it’s already in line with Artificial Fertilizer so that’s might not be necessary.
Tech 2: 400w 400c for faster recharge on the charged ability. This tech seems like a bit of a waste to me. This slightly increases their dps but that’s kinda it. It’s also quite expensive. Not sure what you’d replace it with tho, something still combat related. At the very least, it’s much too expensive imo. Also, the tooltip should include how much the charge time is reduced by, probably as a percentage.
Tech 3: 200w 200c for +10 build limit for the Rifleman. Solid tech for a reasonable price. This allows them to mass much higher and therefore stay viable into the late game. No changes needed.
That seems 80-90% of the way there to me. Aside from balance and numbers adjustment, really all that’s needed is new voice-lines to replace the placeholder Cree and new art to replace the placeholder Cherokee.
The only other consideration is what maps you’d place them on, and that I’m not too sure. Saguenay and Great Lakes maybe?
Some other random thoughts:
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Cherokee as units seem kinda bland now, since Cree have been adjusted and seeing Lenape. I suppose comparing those and Klamath, fully upgraded Cherokee have the most speed, Klamath the most attack, and Cree the most speed. But at base, those 3 all have the same attack and range, Klamath and Cherokee even the same cost, although Cherokee have the lowest hand attack for some reason. This isn’t a big deal tho since none of these appear on any of the same maps, just wanted to get that off my chest. Apparently the devs also noticed the free upgrades for African fields and have changed it to -50%, which is fair but still funny.
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I’m kinda sad the Holcon Javalier has fully replaced the spearmen. I’m sure lots of people prefer them, and they’re cool and all, but imo they should have been kept a Mexico unique unit. Ideally, I’d like to see both trainable at the TP as they seem here to stay (build limits subject to adjustment), but I’d settle for the new units having their hand infantry tag restored so the Maya hp tech actually affects them again. Also they (and Seminole) should still receive another tech, and I stand by my suggestions from above.
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After having another look at legacy Aztecs, Haude/Iro, and Lakota, I still think they could plausibly be reintroduced with some minor work. At the very least, they could still be reasonably be included on niche/meme maps (e.g. Unknown, Amazonia). The changes to the Eagle Warrior are weird tho, to me anyway.
I like the idea of allied villagers not occupying population. It could also apply to the Cree and Berbers.
I mean, that would certainly encourage more players to use them, but idk if that would be too strong in the late game. Tho I guess it might also slow down how fast you need houses in the early game too, hmmm…
Cree CDB are in an ok place imo. Yeah they’re somewhat underused in my mind, but I actually see people snag them from time to time, which is more than I can say for most Natives. Tho it would be nice if they remembered you can train CDB from the embassy as well.
Berber Nomads are just overpriced imo. The natural vs infinite gather rates and gaining strength in numbers* are neat gimmicks, but 180f is a very steep price. That’s basically the same as a Settler Wagon! A high price doesn’t just impact your eco in an abstract way, it delays how soon and how often you can train a unit and it limits what else you can produce. I think if you reduce the Nomad’s cost to 160f, or 150f if you like nice round numbers, you’ll see them used much more often, and I think that’d be a more meaningful change than removing their population cost.
*that buff doesn’t cap at 5 Nomads in a group btw. It goes to at least 10, and I haven’t tested more so not sure if that’s the limit.
Well that was fast. Lenape has been added to Unknown. I guess that technically means it’s possible to learn how they play in pvp on an official map, no need for a custom map.
Now that just leaves Aztecs, Haude, and Lakota lol. One day…
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Ia there a datsheet? Do they have technologies ?
I found nothing on Wikia
Yes, they have the 3 technologies unchanged as I said above, as well as the Rifleman and the Villager.
The Wikia is very slow to update, I wouldn’t rely on it. If you want to have a look at them yourself, they’re in the Canada Historical Battle. Or else, you can use them in the Scenario Editor (That’s where you can still access the legacy unused natives as well)
Edit: unrelated, but I wanted to add that I learned Lenape Villagers and Cree CDB don’t appear in the Native Embassy, while the Berber Nomad does. The exception seems to be the Embassy USA gets from Pennsylvania.
Currently I don’t have access to the game.
Reworked civs reloaded!
I can’t edit previous post without a moderator so I’m posting some stuff I had improved but didn’t get the opportunity to show as well as new techs for native I had made:
SUFI
Reworked techs
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Sharia (100f,100c): Villager train limit +10%
New effects: Also makes their kill XP= 1 XP & their build XP=15XP.
Why: On paper it’s a cheap and good tech. In practice it’s an extremely circumstantial tech, being very good only for the Dutch. The impact of this new effect is small but give us a little more effect to justify the use.
New techs
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Tariqa (250f, 250c) Practice tariqa, one of the four stages of Sufism to welcome the dawn of a new age to your town.
New effect: All land military units +5% damage. Your next military shipment arrives very fast.
Why: The effect I had created was very confusing so I simplified it because Sufi lacks military improvements.
"A tariqa is a school or order of Sufism, or specifically a concept for the mystical teaching and spiritual practices of such an order with the aim of seeking which translates as “ultimate truth”. Tariqa - Wikipedia -
Clash of Elephants (300w, 300c): The Sufi takes in a trio of triple threat to your cause.
New effect: Delivers 3 War Elephants. This tech has a research time of 90s.
Why: Sufi was lacking a military tech: This tech makes having War Elephants (600f, 240w) considerably cheaper (300c, 300w), however, it takes quite a few time to be ready, so it’s a interesting trade.
" Parade of elephants, Herd of elephants or Clash of elephants are all terms used to describe a group of elephants”. Collective noun elephants
JESUITS
New techs
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Catechism (150w,150c): Jesuits teach the recipients of the catechetical work, by recovering the health of your people and allying with natives.
New effect: Healers (Priests, Medicine man, Surgeon…) heal units 20% faster including those who are not idle - Padres heal 10% faster instead. You can train Conquistador at any Native Settlement as long as you keep this alliance.
Why: Another cheap tech that may benefit at long run. I stacked two effects so any of those ones alone would be just too weak.
The Spanish Conquistadors were not impressed with the royal declarations concerning evangelization, but most of their expeditions were accompanied by devout priests and religious who took such counsel to heart. Catechism - encyclopedia; The Church and the Native Americans- Article
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Antique Armory (300w, 300c): Spare armors are temporarily available to your soldiers.
New effect: Increases the ranged/melee armor of your land gunpowder units and heavy infantry by 5% for 300s (except siege units). Increases the HP of all your gunpowder units by 5%.
Why: I borrowed this concept from Age of Empires 2 (Spain). The name was update to “Antique Armory” from “Former Armory”. Instead of buffing gunpowder units, this technology (or even Hidalgos) could give Conquistador a “special musket attack”.
KLAMATH
Reworked techs
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Klamath Work Ethos (175f, 175w, 175c): Villagers gather resources +5% faster.
Rework: Settlers gather resources 10% faster.
Why: I used Imperial Bureaucracy as benchmark to rework it. The original effect pays off after several minutes and even so it might not pay off at all.
Analysis with:
I.e: With this tech: 40 vills on a single resource is worth 42 vills. But by using 100f alone, you’d get 41vills.
Without it :100f= 1 settler and 100c +100w are worth more than 200f (200f= 2 settlers) in villager-sec. Using these resources instead of using Ethos would lead you to more than 43 settlers already! This tech simply does not pay off as it should!
New techs
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Klamath Trade (200f, 200c): improves market buy rate by 30%. Your next light infantry upgrade is much cheaper (-50% cost).
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Klamath Counter Strategy (250f, 250c): At war, Klamath’s tactics shines once more to fight on.
New effect: Rifle Infantry +15% siege resistance. Artillery + 15% ranged damage
Why: Klamath lacks a military technology specific techs for skirmishes are rare too
ZAPOTEC
New tech
Zapotec Ancestry Honor (300w, 300c): The Zapotec afterlife cults present in their culture, praise the heritage .
Effect: Delivers 1 settler and 100 coin for every two settlers you’ve lost so far (max of 10).
Why: I’m saving the former effect to Zen.
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@SimilarOwl0320 and @OperaticShip743
I really appreciate your proposals I must say. Something to keep in mind with costs and effects:
Perhaps some technologies should be more expensive and have a greater effect (similar to some African techs too) to incentivize players to use cost reduction HC cards for techs more. If most techs are cheap, the value of these cards lowers more and more.
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There’s always a trade off tho. If a tech has a huge upfront cost it often doesn’t matter how good the effect is, 90% of players won’t bank the res needed because they have other things they’ll need to spend it on right away. That’s half the reason most players ignore natives most of the time anyway: if you have 200w, would you rather build a barracks or ally with , say, Nootka?
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I actually have to revise my sentiments on unused Legacy natives from Vanilla, specifically on the minor Aztecs. It seems the devs have made major changes to them for the Mexico update. If you don’t know, Mexico can access both the minor Jaguar and Eagle Warriors and 2 of the Aztec techs via two Federal Cards. In doing so, they made adjustments to those units to bring them more into line with the equivalent units from the Major Aztec civ. Both had their costs changed (iirc, Jag went from 60f 40w to 90f 30c, Eagle from 40f 60w to 75f 75c), Jags were given a stealth ability and multipliers vs HI, and Eagles had their multipliers vs HI swapped to anti-cav and seem to be tagged as shock inf (probably abstract ERK specifically). I haven’t compared them yet, but I would guess base stats were also adjusted.
Arguably these changes are improvements to their usability, the cost in particular. And if the DE devs wanted Mexico to essentially have access to Aztec units then fine I guess, it’s not the intent of the original devs but it’s a coherent vision. However, what kills their usability as a Native Ally you could use on the map as the game currently stands is those units are locked to Age 3. I have a feeling this may be an accident on account the devs copy pasted the code from the Major units to the minor ones (as the unit descriptions on the tool tips are the same as the Major Aztec units and not the old Vanilla Minor ones) but it should still be corrected. Even if this never affects multiplayer, this does impact the campaigns so I’d be appreciative if it’s addressed. But until it is, Aztecs aren’t fit to be reintroduced to real maps. (Shhhh, don’t tell the devs they can still spawn on Amazonia)
As an aside, the Aztec tech that isn’t used by Mexico, Chinampa, might need a small change. It improves the gather rates of Mills, Fish, and Whales. I think that’s a fine eco bonus, but it only improves it by 5%. On it’s face it should be at least 10%, but I think you could reasonably increase it to 15% or even 20%. 10% is prob the most fair tho. In particular, compare with the Zapotec and Akan techs in regard to the rate on Mill gathering, as the price tag is the same for all 3.
CARIB
CARIB: Carib | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom
Overview
Carib tribes are the only minor legacy civilization with 4 technologies but they are far from versatile. All of them are based on archers (and their own archers) which makes them extremely circumstancial.
It was a no brainer decision mashing a good tech and a bad tech together into one, so we can have give more space to other strategies.
And obviously: I hope this guy gets a poison damage!!!
NEW TECHS
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Caribbean Navigators (250w, 250c): Carib tribe teachs you the skill about how to navigate the best routes at tempestuous waters.
New Effect: Warships are 10% faster. Canoes do 20% more damage and delivers 2 of them.
Why: For some reason, a tribe that belonged to islands, specialized in boats and were skilled navigators has no bonus related to water. Actually, there is absolutely not a single native technology related to canoes (ships available when you ally to american natives). WHAT THE HECK!
Lore: The fact they (caribbean) were able to migrate from the continent to various islands in the Caribbean, as well as conquer already populated islands are testaments both to their skills as navigators and boat. New World Encyclopedia - Carib, Carib Warfare and Slaving - article
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Carib Handlines Fishing (200w, 200c): The Carib tribe shows the best spots for fishing in the archipelago.
New Effect: Delivers a spot with Mahi-mahi fish rich in food (1500f) to your naval shipment point. You can use this technology twice, but the second time both the cost and the food available are increased by 50%.
Why: I can just repeat myself about the reason above, but this time it’s an economic improvement because Caribbeans only have military ones.
Lore: French observers of the 17th and 18th centuries, including some excellent
anglers, unanimously admired the fishing skills of the Island Caribs. Island Caribs frequently fished with handlines from their dugout canoes and lines were made from either pite or mahot. Caribbean Fishing and Fishermen: A Historical Sketch
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Carib Blockade (250f, 250c): The Carib will block routes to enemy supplies.
New Effect: Gives -100xp to one opponent and for the next 300s reduce their passive XP by 20%.
Why: In order to promote the knowledge and routes on the map, not allying with this tribe makes receiving shipments from HC more difficult. The standard XP trickle for all civs are 2XP/s, so it goes down to 1.6xp/s for them during 5 minutes, so it’s not a big deal since all your kill/ build XP remains the same. Inspired by OperaticShip743’s idea of xp trickle for caribbeans. One more non-military tech.
Lore: The First Carib War (1769 – 1773) was a military conflict between the Carib inhabitants of Saint Vincent and British military forces at colonial expansion on the island. British unfamiliarity with the windward lands of the island and effective Carib defence of the island’s difficult mountain terrain blunted the British advance. First Carib War - wiki
REWORKED TECHS
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Carib Kasiri Beer (250f, 250c): Melee infantry and archers get +10% attack.
New effect (300f, 300c): Also: Archers get +1.0x multiplier against villagers.
Why: Garifuna Drums had a pretty mediocre effect (+10% archer bonus) already covered by Tupi (+15%) and Seminole (+15%), so adding it to Kasiri beer and increasing the cost felt natural. -
Carib Garifuna Drums (150f, 150c): Archers get +1.0x multiplier against villagers.
New effect: For 30s, military units and villagers are trained 50% faster.
Why: Lore-wise. Drums were used to prepare for a ceremony. In this case, for a battle. Also, this opens up for more than just “archers” since Carib were fierce warriors and this improvement benefits all your military. -
Carib Ceremonial Feast (400w, 400c): Carib Blowgunners and Ambushers +50% hit points; requires Champion Carib.
New effect: They also gain a “Feasting heal” ability: When a Carib unit kills an enemy, that single unit is healed by 50 HP.
Why: When this tech is used Carib Blowgunner would have at least 344 HP. +50hp per kill to a single unit is actually a very weak heal (~1/7 of their total HP) when you consider a whole army of blowgunners, but gives us more reason to waste that many resources on it. If not, at least a reduction to the cost would be welcome.
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The problem is that the native civs already have canoes by default so the tech would disproportionately benefit them. Something more generic like warships (including canoes) gathering faster from fish and whales might be better.
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