Strelets, Not dealing well vs what they counter?

Hello. In this post I look to bring some awareness to strelets. Keep it to their range and how they deal vs other units.

After playing more than 2k games of Russia. I can talk from my own experience

So far they are cheap and they trade well when Good economy is going. However When both players are equally good and the other player pushes you to use them. Strelets are not as efficient. As they don’t win the Light infantry vs light infantry war, and they lose to some of their own counter [ Musk, Ranged cav ]

  • Strelets stats for Commerce are 14 range 72 HP 8 attack. [ 85 HP 9 A w/ boyars ]
  • Veteran Strelets stats for Fortress are 14 range 90 HP 10 attack [ 103 HP 11 A w/ Boyars ] & [ 121 HP 13 A w/ boyars + strelet combat ]
  • Fully carded Strelets and Imperial. They got 202 HP 23 A, X3 vs HI, X2 vs RC and 16 range. [ and after having these stats, They lose hard to caroleans ]

Event with these stats. The following units just kill Strelet so badly it’s disgusting. And Strelet is supposed to be their counter. Saying strelet is cheap and that they kill them. Yes they do but losing resources before the trade becomes efficient is a really bad design. I often lose more strelets before a fight starts due to their low range. Than when the fight has already started. At which point the fight is also Lost.

  • Veteran Carolean [ Swede Musketeer ]: carded in Fortress has 15 range and it’s a musk. This is the most insane as a well played swede, completely destroys Russia. Keeping in mind that Caroleans by Imperial have 375 hp and 17 range, And by Industrial 16 range and 300 HP
  • Dragoon type units [ Most Euro civs ]: Walking up in front of strelets and wiping them just because goons got High hp and range resistance plus 14 range [ 18 range Port goon ]
  • Eagle Runners [ Aztec ]: These destroy strelets very bad. And they got 16 range and 1.5 ROF against strelets. Just wow
  • War Wagon [ Germany ]: These got 16 range and 18 range with arsenal upgrade. No way on earth to deal vs these using strelets nor any other unit within the Russia’s army.
  • Ashigaru [ Japan Musketeer ]: Despite ashi having 12 range. They got 4.5 mov speed and they got alot of HP they can close the gap very easy.
  • Janissaries [ Ottoman Musketeer ]: Fight these is a little bit more Strelet favored. But most of the time an otoman player doesn’t care if you got some strelets. They just walk in and hit as range is not that much of a difference.
  • Sepoy [ Indian Musk ]: Close to what happens to Jani
  • Normal musk [ Most Euro civs ]: These are the easiest to fight as they got 4.0 mov speed and 12 range. But civs that got cards for them can just close the gap and demolish strelets

For most civs they got Skirms or an anti infantry unit that has good traits and 16 + range. No other civ has a type skirm unit with 14 range. Even jungle bowman which is close to strelet as they move fast. have 16 range and poison to them [ Jungle bowman gets 19 range by Imperial and they have a mov speed of 5+ with cards]

With this post I type for strelets to receive a Range buff [ They currently have one for imperial which gives them 16 range ] But most supremacy games end around Fortress, rarely industrial.

Strelets should have 16 Range by Fortress, maybe on their Veteran upgrade? And move their Imperial +2 buff to Industrial to be able to deal with Caroleans accordingly. If these are implemented strelets should have 18 range by industrial and that should make them a useful unit against the units they counter.

I’m suggesting this change but being very cautious about it. Here is the following. Russia’s Early Fortress is the weakest of all civs and they don’t have much that favors them. Weak strelets, Weak musks.And current pathing in game doesn’t help to use cannons properly. Most civs just age up and go for that Skirm/goon composition or you just get destroye early on because strelets aren’t good enough.

  • Have to add that when Russia finally ages Catches up to Fortress. They usually have to spend 600 wood and 600 coin to upgrade all their army if they did Strelet/musk/Cossack

Balance wise I would say it is fair if strelets had 16 starting range from Commerce age, But let’s open it to discussion. Losing half my strelet against Junglebowman or xbow before strelet is any useful doesn’t seem ok due to having to go close to fight

Now Areas where they need 16 range and 18 range are 16 in Fortress and 18 in Industrial. Or else they aren’t as useful versus what they are supposed to counter

I’ll bring more proof as needed with videos. I’ll start recording these aspect when playing.

8 Likes

I’ll take the time to read the post to see the point you’re trying to make, but my first thought when I read the title was that I disagree.

I’m heavily against buffing strelets, they are already the most cost-efficient unit of the game on age2, don’t forget they cost 37f and 10w.

I think Russia does need a slight buff, but if I had to choose, CA is the most obvious choice.

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I understand that saying NO to buffing strelets is the straight up answer. But do you find it healthy that Caroleans [ Swedish musketeer ] Has 15 range and 200+ hp in the fortress age. And strelets are not close to dealing well vs them? I don’t think that is balanced

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That is not an issue with Strelets, that is just the Caroleans being OP.
Caroleans murder their own counters.

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Have you had someone properly use Eagle Runners 16 Range [ Aztec ] and War wagons 18 Range [ German ] Against you? These 2 civs aren’t easy for russia whatsoever. And those 2 units complete destroy strelets. And there is nothing else you can throw at those as they destroy all russia has

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Support the idea of +2 range in veteran upgrade. But I am not sure about whether they need a buff on ranged cav and another range buff in industrial.

It should be noted that they already have 4.5 speed. I worry they will dominate skirm wars if 18 range strelets is implemented.

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I see your point and I respect it, But if strelets are left at 16 range, Caroleans destroys them in Industrial and any unit they counter that has same range or more. Strelets At 18 range for Industrial. No other unit of what they counter should be able to just walk in and kill strelets as they lack range. And skirms and other light infantry still wins that Skirm war.

On a civ level though I don’t think that streltsy need to be buffed beyond maybe a range increase to 16 in age III. They are so cheap that they are very effective in early game, and Russia’s late game/treaty meta is musk, cossacks, and Oprichniks. Even so streltsy still beat regular musks late game.

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16 range is same as xbows, I believe that’s enough to counter caroleans, which already been needed with counter infantry rifling, boyars and strelets combat.

It is obvious that current Russians can’t counter war wagons and howdahs, so it makes sense to give a range buff for veteran upgrade. However more evidence is required to prove that they are still bad in age4 with 16 range. The balance change should be done gradually.

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problem with strelets is that they have too much hp and not enough damage, meaning that after age 2 they struggle to get damage in even when using meat shields and is antithesis to their attrition/ resource effective game style. making their stat-line more damage focused will let them kill their intended heavy infantry/ light cavalry targets quicker while being more vulnerable to their counters. and giving them 16 range veteran/18 range industrial will mean they stay a constant threat throughout the game. changing their wood cost to gold will also improve their attrition game style as the game goes on and simplify Russia’s resource prioritization.

Sttrelets are super pop inefficient the longer game goes. So buffing them there should be no big deal. The cost effectivity helps less and less as gane goes on.

I would change that veteran guard and imperial upgrade each gives 2 range. Do they have 14 at first 16 in fortress 18 in industrial and 20 in imp like regular skirms.

If you gonna buff then do it by buffing the upgrades and not the base stats or they will dominate age2.

I’m still against it, strelets are not designed to be used later game anyway, they are supposed to be an early game force.

The reason of using strelet is to overwhelm your rival in early game, don expect to win in equals battlets after a 15/20m++ game if ur rival did well.

But they could receive some upgrades to don’t be so useless in lategame as u say, I don’t disagree in that. More range sounds fair to me, +2 range in veteran & maybe +2 in industrial, is kind of sad that one can’t use such a funny unit after industrial age cuz is just not worth.

2 Likes

I think there’s a lot of merit in making every civ more robust now that all ranked matches are matched through quick search. Civilizations shouldn’t have unwinnable match-ups, ideally.

Buffing strelets seems pretty delicate. From Khorix’s OP, it also sounds like giving an additional multiplier on their melee attack against HI might help in a lot of match-ups. range in the late game would help w/ ranged cav.

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This is a Ranked match around top 50
Here is the first video I could make about Russia vs Swede. In this match many things could have been done differently. But here it shows why strelet need 18 range by industrial. @Leafy6224

This game I was able to delay the inevitable through Forts. But through army itself as most games go. Swede > Russia and very badly. And you can’t just say mass early and push them. The moment Swede gets to Fortress is a matter of how bad the swede manages his army

Now that we got a balance team and we can make the game better. Fixing civs so they don’t have a completely bad matchup like this. Like Russia only way is through canon. And these don’t go well because Swede has 6 Mamelukes infinite for 900 gold… Yikes

I’ll bring as many more proof as needed. just have to face them and record when I see them

Russia has nothing past 14 range But canons and forts. And these are easy to deal with

2 Likes

ok I watched the whole game, spending mostly an hour lol

I have some feelings on this game, but you are a better player than me so these are only my opinions:

  1. The fight in 33 mins you lose because of the mamelukes, which can perfectly counter cossacks+strelets. Even with 16 or 18 range strelets, the fight would still lose.

  2. I believe the main reason why you lose is the economy. I don’t have the postgame data but I am sure the opponent was booming to 99 vils between 25-40min because he had 3 TCs.

  3. You sent the boyars card in 40 mins, and sent the strelet combat in 45mins, but the opponent could already outmass caroleans with better economy at that time. This game was over when he reached 99 vils.

Buffing a unit for 4 more range is a huge change imo, and changes should be done very prudently. I suggest giving them 16 range first and observe the position it brings.

But who knows what devs are thinking, maybe they believe that 14 range strelets is totally enough :upside_down_face:, idk whether they will enter these kinds of constructive balance change suggestion thread and consider them seriously.

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Probleme with you @Khorix9572 is the way you play russia is totaly wrong. Your are behind the whole game, we can’t conclude annything about that game.

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Show a couple of matches where Russia > swede I haven’t been able to crack swedes

Swe was op since the begining. And you know that no top russia play like you (because your style is not opti). Sorry but you are not a reference with russia.

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You are still focusing on my gameplay while This post is about strelet not working properly vs what they are supposed to counter. Once again Show me Vods of Russia giving no chance to Swede. For the purpose of balancing their range.

This is a video game and you can play it however you want. Focus on the post…