Why don't we work on another big fan patch that enacts all the changes we want to see?

People felt that TAD wasn’t balanced, so then there came the ESOC patch. The patch was revised after years and years, and eventually became official in DE.

Why not do it again?

We (as the players) are the ultimate testers when it comes to trying things out.

Fix Sweden’s torps and Caroleans,
Nerf Japan,
Buff Aztec units and Russian strelets,
Fix China’s vulnerable Age 2,
Make melee infantry useful, etc.

We did it once, I’m sure we could do it again.

Edit: you know what, I went here (Modding - Basis - Introduction - Age of Empires III Heaven) and I’ll see what I can do, lmao


Well the point is that i bought a game in October… A game i thought was finished and debugged. Neither is true, and there is a dev. team working towards balance and bug fixing.

ESOC patch happened because ES said it wasnt going to provide anymore support to the game 2 years after TAD.

Also, there are tons of issues that are not related to balance, namely:

  • Bugs related to unit queues;
  • Bugs related to buildings and garrisoning;
  • Bugs related to units getting stuck;
  • In game Chatrooms and Invite features not working properly due to flawed design;
  • Bugs related to pixelization and graphics;
  • Bugs with Shift clicking

Also making a fan patch could not only collide with the many many many bugs still to be fixed, but also would mess the balance idea of a game which HAS a working dev. team.

Wait for the next patch


Because this game receives updates every month. And the big issue is pathfinding, balance is about 10th in the row.


I personally think the game has been a lot smoother than when it first came out. I haven’t had my game crash since the last update.

Despite technical issues still getting resolved, I still think it’d be fun trying out some changes and learning a lot from them.


Ideally we wouldn’t have to resort to this.


Well for one, the game is actively supported and the things you are complaining about mostly don’t need to be changed.


There is a full team of paid professionals working full time on the game.
Although the esof staff did a brilliant job with the esoc patch, their team was very limited.
The devs are constantly updating this game, they quickly respond to people when they report a bug or any issues.
All we need is patience, the game is far better now than it was a couple of months ago.


Not usually from my experience.

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Most of the players never touched EP, or mainly played on official.
Including me, so I guess all the balance, even if that matter -of course it does- is not crucial right now for most of the civs.

DE is in a good state right now, I could spend years on it, even if I really want them to fix all the problems left too, It is not “awfull”.

I mean, 90% of the playerbase were able to play 24/24 Great plain on nilla and Deccan on TAD, with almost every lobby getting FTJ and 1/5 games dropped by a player disconnected. I think we can accept that DE isn’t totally perfect 3 months after launch right ? ^^

The only thing thats a real problem they really need to fix asap is the scenario. Even if i’m not playing it a lot there was such a large ammount of players playing it, it’s like if they didnt add treaty for exemple, it’s hard to accept.

The friendlist, classic ranks and the other small bugs matter, balance too, but it can be fixed slowly week after week, if it’s done correctly. Let’s just hope they keep working on it.

Balance isn’t an easy thing to correct in an RST, if the developpers just apply 10% of the community propositions on this forum the game would be unplayable lol and as they are not proAOE3 player i can understand they need time to nerf, buff or add things to a civ.

I think having a big selection of civs that still play similar is a good thing, because it causes players to spew less propaganda about their own main civ, like in games of Starcraft (which is still incredibly well balanced), Warcraft or Company of heroes. Company of Heroes for example is so terribly balanced, only 1 out of 2 Axis faction is playable, the other one is terrible because the devs nerfed it. But I digress.

We are talking about 1v1 supremacy balance obviously, since thats the real RTS game mode. Most of the european civs play very similar and many of them are quite close in power level, with France being too strong. Especially their 12/10 is too powerful.

Then we look at some of the civs that are widely regarded as weak: China as the biggest contender. China is basically never being played in tournaments. They Age up too slowly and lose the game to a French 12/10 because it hits them too hard and too early. China doesn’t offer anything that a civ like Spain, France or Germany does not offer. These can all hit a fast fortress timing.

But as soon as you put preassure on China before fortress, they crumble because they are too slow. Their extended Age 2 is also the worst in the game because they are unable to mass 1 type of unit due to how banner armies work. 8 CKN is a straight up worse shipment than 8 Crossbows due to having lower stats. And China has worse economy compared to everyone else because they have no villager shipment in Age 2 and only get 2 villagers in Age I.

But all of this could get fixed with few but precise changes which have been suggested many times already.

For example giving China 100 more wood to start the game with. Giving China a 2 Flamethrower Shipment in Age II, which they don’t have for some reason. (Its still a lot weaker than Sweden’s 2 Leather cannon shipment, which is overpowered being 800 ressources in value). And Flamethrowers need to be buffed by receiving more range with upgrades so they stay effective in Age 3 and onward. Just like how Caroleans, Jungle Bowmen, Abus guns, Gurkha receive more attack range with upgrades. Flamethrowers cost too many ressources and 4 pop cost is not justified (especially with Leather cannons being only 3 pop). By improving Flamethrowers, adding a 2 Flamethrower shipment in Age 2 and improving the longevity of Flamethrowers by giving them more range with upgrades, you have given China a new option to play with Flamethrowers in Age 2 and hopefully open up more strategic variety. A 2 Flamethrower timing push could become a staple build and put an end to the endless “FF or bust” game mode that is China.

All the dev team needs to do is implement this and play around with it a littlebit and then release a balance patch. Just like they did a simple but precise buff for Portugal which turned them into a very competitive civ.

QS team is not realy acceptable to me. In 3v3, probleme happend very often, and i am not a big fan of release games before they are finished (not at this point)

That is not an option. China is not bad as you think they are. The current balance is very good, there are a couple a low civ (but not that low, nothing close to low civ on RE) and there are not obvious top civ.


I agree there, giving china 100w or 100f as ppl suggest would make the civ broken as it would also buff their ff

Good luck playing China vs France 12/10 without dying to the preassure. Its simply not viable. China earlygame needs to be buffed.

100w is arguably the biggest buff you could do, which is why I wrote for example. But I guess people love to not read precisely and just react like they read something else.

see, even here players desagree, how can the dev fix things as fast as we wish ? : /

  • on many discussions I saw people asking for russia geting skirm, some asking for the unit getting bonus with “high ground” etc etc…

Amphiprion :

At the launch of the game I was one of the few begging for the same lobbies system as the main rank system for team… most of the people here were desagreeing, including you if I remind well ?
Here we are :confused:

But to be honest, I have not that “much” problem with team QS, it’s just frustrating that u can’t play alone like before, now you need a mate online.

I tried to submit a mod on the website, but it didn’t let me upload. Oh well. I modded my game and played around with some civs on Deathmatch.

• Skull Knight speed from 4.0 to 4.4.
• Jaguar Prowl Knight changed resistance from 0.1 melee to 0.2 ranged.
• Chinampa and Great Chinampa cards increased rates from 10% and 15% respectively to 15% and 20% respectively.
• Coyote Runner base HP increased from 150 to 160 (to help reflect its cost and improve efficacy compared to its counterpart, the Incan Chimu Runner).

• Tomahawk multiplier against cav increased from x3 to x3.5. Their cost is also changed from 75F 25W to 80F and 20W.

• Kancha house HP reduced from 1500 to 1100. Food gathering rate reduced from 0.6 to 0.45. Cost to build increased from 135W to 145W.
• Chicha Brewing moved from Age 2 to 3 and now doubles food gathering speed by x2, instead of x1.5.

• Ashigaru musketeer speed reduced from 4.5 to 4.25. Their base HP is also reduced from 170 to 160.
• Japanese Naginata Rider base HP reduced from 300 to 285.
• All Daimyo base HP has been reduced from 650 HP to 550 HP. Shogun Tokugawa base HP reduced from 1500 to 1300 as well.
• Japanese shrine HP reduced from 1600 to 1200.

• Village cost reduced from 190 to 150.
• Keshik ranged attack increased from 8 to 9.
• Qiang Pikeman base HP increased from 105 to 115.
• Flamethrower population cost reduced from 4 to 3. Range increased from 10 to 11.

• Earth Bounty trickles rates increased from 0.65W and 0.65G per second to 1.15W and 1.15G per second. Gathering rate from estates increased from 10% to 20%.

• Strelet range increased from 14 to 16 (will fully get to 18 with Imperial upgrade). Line of sight increased to 19.

• Rodelero now has a x2 multiplier against villagers

• Carolean HP reduced from 150 to 135. Melee armor is reduced from 0.30 to 0.20.
• Swedish Torps wood cost increased from 115 to 125. Torp HP has been reduced from 1500 to 1100. Torp wood gathering rate has been decreased from 0.5W per second to 0.3W per second.
• Svea Lifeguard card now gives a 10% HP boost instead of a 25% HP boost to Caroleans and Grenadiers. It now also converts the 0.20 melee resistance of Caroleans to 0.20 ranged resistance.

Below are screenshots of me playing around.

I tell you man, Russian strelets with 18 range are amazing and effective. Carolean HP nerfed with 0.20 ranged resist still makes them strong, but now feels vulnerable to mass skirmishers now. I deliberately nerfed them to a point where skirms can 4-shot them as opposed to 6, and it forces Sweden to pull out hussars and micro their artillery.

And Aztecs feel more “violent” with these buffs, lol.

I haven’t tested the 1v1 ability of China, Inca, and Sweden yet. But definitely they should be way more vulnerable, and I haven’t personally played China enough to see the impact of these buffs I gave them

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No, toma is the best musk vs cav in hand combat

No probably because it’s too bad

No, this hate of japan is amazing

Too big, village is already better than house, 150 w for 20 pop + vills garnison + shipment point = no

No, imagine rods with 24 damages vs vills and cannot be counter by cav

caro is absolutly garbage in age 2 already


Yes, they do. The intent was to get the civ more playable on treaty since they are rarely seen in treaty games. Part of that reason I’ve seen people commonly agree on is that their lategame anti-cav isn’t that great. They don’t have a strong economy to keep pumping out musket riders (which are weaker than goons without ceremonial buff or aura). And when they run out of wood on the map, they have no tomahawks. The cav multiplier doesn’t affect combat with any other units except cav

I just threw one too many ideas at Inca to shake the civ away from turtling too hard.

I figured that for 1755W, Inca can build all of its Kancha houses and send the card in Age 2 to get an infinite trickle of 11.7F per sec. The Dutch by comparison (not commonly played 1v1 from what I’ve seen) has to spend 3500 resources (1750W and 1750G) to get their 13.75G trickle. It intrinsically much safer and easier for Inca to set up a trickle worth a factory and a half.

So I thought of several things to nerf it, either delaying the 0.9 trickle until age 3, increasing the cost of building them so there aren’t that many, and reducing HP. But I believe the delaying of 0.9 trickle until age 3 would be most viable.

I was just curious to see how Japan’s endgame strength was affected by these nerfs. The Ashigaru with the auras, cards, and dojo still had slightly better stats than Portuguese British musketeers, and the ability for Japan to run around with their Daimyos wasn’t really changed any bit except with a little HP. I didn’t play supremacy to see how weaker shrines felt, but I don’t believe it makes a life-changing difference as people can already punish Japan with an early rush.

Yeah maybe that was a bad idea. I was trying to change the starting crate of China to 4 wood instead of 3, but didn’t figure out where it was in the code. People who play China always had to debate how to use their early wood, so I originally thought this would ease it a little bit. 400 starting wood still is arguably the most important change they need.

Maybe the x2 multiplier was much, but do you still see this unit being used a lot? I’ve seen maybe a few players use them for snare and maybe a meatshield, but I still don’t see Spain players finding a great use for their Rodelero

I played Sweden supremacy with the AI with these nerfs. Yeah, the Caroleans are bad in age 2, even worse here, but I just protected the two Age 2 cannons and threw some huss around till I could get to age 3. In a gunfight, it felt a little weaker, but I didn’t mind it if I had the 2 cannons and some cav to help. Booming was the same, I just picked off people hitting my torps as usual.

When I was playing Post-Imperial deathmatch, the lower HP and 0.20 ranged resist really made a difference. Having 50 caroleans standing in mass felt unstable against mass skirms, and you started to really had to rely on cannons or else the skirms would eventually gain advantage. It didn’t feel as “stable” or “simple” with a mass of caroleans and some cannons. It felt like in due time, you were gonna have to throw huss in there and make some horse cannons and culverins, which achieved my goal of breaking the one-unit comp.

I think our probleme we don’t play at the same game ^^ . The balance is done arround 1v1 sup


Yeah you’re right. Now I see why the legendary ESOC team really had to make 2 patches - one for 1v1 balance, and one for treaty.

Curious, I dug into the history of the ESOC Treaty patch, and people back then have already thought thick and thin through all of this, and have implemented a lot of people wanted. Look below and see what ESOC team already did back then -


  • Coyote Runner now have 165 HP and 20% ranged resistance (from 150 HP and 10% ranged resistance)
  • Warrior Priests no longer cost population
    Suggested Buffs / Nerfs


Dutch: (eco was boosted for treaty)

  • Villager limit increased to 65 from 50. No longer gain +4 villagers from Cavalier politician to Age 4
  • Tulip speculation now increases bank gather rate by 20% (from 15%).

France: (good ol’ OP France was nerfed more)

  • Cuirassier - New stats are 450 hitpoints, 26 damage, 1 splash (from 500 hitpoints, 30 damage, 2 splash). Cost reduced to 140f/140g.
  • French can no longer train the Hussar
    (same link above for the suggested buffs/nerfs for Aztecs)

Iroquois/Haudenosaunee: (problem of late game wood was fixed)

  • Infinite 1500 resource shipment is now 1200 and gives 1200 wood (from 500 food 500 wood 500 coin)

Japan: (strong units were nerfed)

  • Naginata HP card decreased to 20% (from 30%)
  • Yumi Archer Attack card increases damage by 10% (from 15%)
  • Ashigaru Musketeer Attack card increases Ashi damage by 10% (from 15%)
  • Way of the Bow now only increases Yumi hitpoints by 10% (from 15%)
  • Close Combat card now only increases Ashigaru hitpoints by 10% (from 15%)
    First the Swedes, then the Incas, and now the Japanese please

Ottoman: (slight but much-needed anti-cav buff for jans)

  • Janissary melee multiplier vs cavalry now 2.5 (from 2.0), vs light infantry now 2.0 (from 1.5)

Russia: (units were a little stronger to be more pop-effective, thank God)

Souix/Lakota: (lategame eco buffed a little, like what I tried to do in this mod)

  • Earth Bounty card now gives a 1.25 wood trickle (from 0.65 wood/gold trickle)
  • Great hunter card now allows villagers to gather from all resources 15% faster (from 20% faster hunting)
    Lakota, treaty eco

If anything, the devs already took from the normal ESOC patch that made the game a lot better. I don’t think it would hurt at all to take a few changes from the ESOC Treaty patch as well

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I don’t think there’s any way to balance eveything in a game when there’s more than 3 or 4 different civ…

And i’m absolutely against different balance between supr, DM or treaty.

  • as I understand strel are are a bit weak in 1v1, that’s a fact with that mappool, ginving 18 range to strel will make them totally OP in teams…