-Standard Poll -Regarding Nomad being an entirely separate game mode that should not be inside the standard starts random script map queue. Among other suggestions - Standard Poll -

you have to go back to 2020 to see vote numbers as high as he is talking about…so his data is basically a year and a half old.

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Sorry mate but i dont stoop down to this

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As well as mid '2021

stop making stuff up. i searched the forum for the 1v1 ranked pool votes. this is the one with the highest number of voters (almost 900) in the second half of 2021: 🗳 VOTE NOW! 1v1 Ranked Map Rotation - August 24

as you can see Nomad still won.

(there is a chance i missed a vote somewhere, but considering most others had <700 voters, it’s unlikely there is one with 1400 voters)

where do you get your ‘data’ from?

Can we add a separate game mode for Mangrove Jungle too while we’re at it? 111 jk, don’t do it.

Imo i think Nomad should be permanently part of the ranked mode, like arabia and arena and BF. Why create even more separate modes to break the playerbase even more?

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For my argument

September '20

Sept '20

Oct '20

May '21

Feb '21

Aug '20

Jul '20

Against my argument

Jan '21

Mixed/very close results (difference of or within 1%)

Nov '20

There are also quite a few cases of nomad losing heavily with only 600ish votes, so I’m thinking that those for and against switch out in how active they are in the voting pools more often than I expected and judging by the votes they both have large numbers, either that or this was when african clearing was a new map for nomad and interest was high.(referring to the one against the argument)
I did not post those here as I was looking for those above the 1k threshold.


This one interests me:

2714 voters - no nomad in the pool - however mega random(contains nomad within itself from time to time) is in the pool and tends to have similar popularity - yet mega random is nowhere near the top 3.

all of these are old. not a single one from ‘late 2021’ which has Nomad losing.
all but 2 of your ‘examples’ dont even have Nomad up for vote, but are other maps with Nomad start

so your correlation of ‘more votes, Nomad is more likely to lose’ is very questionable.

If i were to hazard a guess, it’s that the number of votes dropped after the ban/favourite system was introduced, so people stopped caring about these votes since they can just ban whatever they dislike. Which is also a hint what you should do if you don’t like a map: ban it

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Well, that’s a blatant lie. Nomad is nomad regardless of what map it appears in. And also, mid 2021 was my corrected statement. Regardless, it refutes the claim that my data is all from 2020. And it also refutes your claim that ‘there’s no proof or any games above 1k votes’

And even if my data was only from 2020, I would trust it much more than the current dates due to the horrendously low participation in votes.

As for my general ‘banning’ preference. Being forced to ban a map because it starts as an entirely separate game mode feels allot more like a ban that’s forced to be wasted rather than focusing the very limited ban numbers on something you might actually consider playing within that particular queue.

Ok. Can you stop now? It’s so repetitive, from both sides, no-one is ever going to change their view, and most people don’t agree with you. @RadiatingBlade, can this topic be closed?

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the topic remains open/active for 1 month to allow for proper time in the poll. I’m certain that more arguments could be presented by the opponents. Ones that aren’t so easily refuted.

No. This topic actually needs to close. The opponents have already presented arguments that prove you wrong, but you don’t want to accept them. Besides, as you yourself have established, not many polls actually get enough votes.

Not many polls are given more than 3 days, hardly enough time. Name one argument that has successfully contradicted me.

I don’t play or practice heavy water/naval maps, yet I don’t think they need a separate game mode or ELO.

People will often practice what they love most, and if you don’t practice nearly as much as them in whatever passion that may be, chances are good you’ll lose horribly 99% of the time if you face them.

If Nomad maps are presently a weakness for you, I’m sorry if it means you need to practice Nomad when you don’t want to… but it’s part of the game. I don’t feel it is so vastly different of a game mode than a standard game that solidly practicing 10 or 20 times won’t make you a worthy opponent; especially if you already have a solid foundation of AoE skills, which it sounds like you have. Same with water maps. I don’t really like water maps, but I should probably commit some practice and research time to them if I don’t want to lose 99% of the time I play them.

If Nomad truly needs to be a different game mode, then yes, it should have its own ELO. Same with all other game modes. I’ll call them sub-ELOs… one ELO per category. And there’d also be an overall/overarching ELO rating, though, that would be a score based on a combination of every game mode in AoE.

  • So, if you play every game mode and are great at every one (Regicide, Treaty, Nomad, etc.), then you’d have a great overall ELO rating.
  • If you only play Nomad, or only play normal mode, your sub-ELO may be great for these categories you isolate yourself to, but your overall ELO rating won’t be that great because you never play Regicide, Treaty, etc.
  • In the end, a great overall ELO score would truly show that you’ve mastered the AoE game as a whole. Whereas, good sub-ELOs will show you mastered only a particular game mode or two if you only play that mode or two.

I like this in theory – because should AoE’s ELO really be based solely on if you’re good at Arabia or not? – but I realize there probably aren’t enough players who want to deviate from normal mode to adequately find ranked matches for all the various game modes, if this were to be implemented. ALT+F4’ers would help make this not work, too :slight_smile:

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please dont accuse me of lying. what did i say that was a lie?

no, what the data shows is that Nomad is a popular map. Land Nomad and Water Nomad less so.
When people say ‘Nomad’ they mean the map, because that’s what the map is called. other maps with nomadic starts have their own names.

not what I said.

or because it suits your narrative. Considering the number of votes is only about 1/2 of previous polls, it’s more likely that preferences have changed than that this is a statistical error.

this exact argument applies to Arena for me. you dont see me demanding the world revolves around me and have it removed from the queue because i cant play it. arena is more like a separate game mode if compared to arabia, than Nomad is if compared to some hyprid map

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-you claimed Nomad is its own game mode, it was shown to you it isn’t
-your argument that ‘standard play’ and ‘nomad’ elo doesnt transfer 1:1 is a fallacy because the same is true for literally every pair of maps.
-your comparison of Nomad, the aoe2 map, and nomadic starts in aoe1 was shown to be in error
-your completely made up stuff about villagers spawning in treelines or wolves
-that your Poll is biased in the way it’s phrased
-your correlation of ‘more votes means Nomad loses’ has been shown as wrong
-your correlation of ‘more votes means Nomadic starts lose’ has been shown as questionable at best, considering other major factors could be the reason

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How about you tell me ‘how’ it was proven rather than saying it was. Currently all I see is a list of stuff I’ve already reasonably refuted with at least some logic.

As for the lie, your saying that ‘all but 2 of my examples contain nomad’ is utterly false, and your assumption that nomad is only the original map made by the original devs is ignoring that each new map made under nomad is nomad with names to differentiate whatever the map is just like we have names for all standard maps. The difference between standard and nomad maps is that standard 99% of the time has a fully standard start and nomad maps 99% of the time have a fully nomadic start, and nomad maps all contain either the name ‘nomad’ or are indicated as of late to contain it.

You’ll have to note that nomad was added into the game from age 1 where it was its own game mode, and added into age 2 with an even more nomadic style, however only as a single map. Why it was added in as a single map, we don’t know; my ‘speculative’ arguments as to the reason for that is varied, and even if one is proven to be unlikely does not make it false.

it’s not a lie, as there is no intent to mislead.
‘Nomad’ is the name of a map. Out of the polls you posted only 2 contain that map (unless i miscounted)
So this is a disagreement at best. I ask you to withdraw your accusation of lying.

i dont know what you are trying to say

As for the hows:
-you claimed Nomad is its own game mode, it was shown to you it isn’t
open the game and check. you would LIKE it to be its own game mode, but it currently isnt

-your argument that ‘standard play’ and ‘nomad’ elo doesnt transfer 1:1 is a fallacy because the same is true for literally every pair of maps.
this should be obvious, but here is how: if each map had its own elo, no two elos would be the same (except for maybe something like Arabia:Runestones)
so the argument ‘elo of X and elo of Y doesnt tranfer 1:1, therefore X and Y should not be in the same map pool’ is incorrect. (in fact the exact opposite is true, the devs want a DIVERSE map pool)

-your comparison of Nomad, the aoe2 map, and nomadic starts in aoe1 was shown to be in error
it wasnt following this too closely since i’ve hardly played aoe1. there were however several comments disagreeing with you on this

-your completely made up stuff about villagers spawning in treelines or wolves
you claimed this without evidence, when asked to provide evidence you didnt. so it’s fair to assume it’s made up

-that your Poll is biased in the way it’s phrased
you only present one side of the argument in the question and then ask a leading question ‘the devs obviously agreed with me; do you?’

-your correlation of ‘more votes means Nomadic starts lose’ has been shown as questionable at best, considering other major factors could be the reason
I did that just now, let me spell it out: the other major factors being:
–time (ie it’s reasonable to think that preferences have shifted)
–change in map pool mechanics: with the introduction of bans/star voting behaviour changes
–it’s a weak correlation to begin with, several outliers on both sides

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Refer to the comment above yours one more time, added to it just before your post.

You’re still listing stuff off rather than explaining by detail how it was ‘proven false’.

If you want me to remove the accusation, then add in the phrase ‘while all of those polls contain nomad style maps, I don’t see more than 2 with the original nomad map.’ Etc. Then it’d be at least tolerable; however I feel that the argument that nomad is now a stand-alone map and is not tied to other nomad maps is very much false; every new nomad map is nomad with a different style or name while still being labeled as nomad.
Therefore when speaking of nomad, I mean all nomad maps.

The other portion I had trouble with was your line about ‘none of the polls being from late 2021’
And ‘all of them being old.’

The phrase you were referring to was changed to mid-2021 before you posted that. And just labeling them as old and irrelevant is to ignore larger testing groups and therefore to ignore more accurate results.

you are plainly unwilling to admit you are wrong. there is really nothing that needs to be added to my ‘hows’. There is no further explanation needed for most of these. how much more detail can one provide for something like “you claimed this without evidence, when asked to provide evidence you didnt”
or: you claim that Nomad is its own game mode. you can literally open your game, start a skirmish and check ‘Game Modes’. I understand it’s your opinion that Nomad SHOULD appear there, but it is fact that it isn’t there.
etc

but these are completely different maps! Land Nomad plays nothing like Nomad. As for Steppe, African Clearing, Water Nomad, i’ve hardly played them because they arent in the pool that often. But i dont expect them to play like Nomad, the same way i dont expect gold rush to play like four lakes.

this is your feeling, not a fact. you shouldnt accuse me of lying because i disagree with your feeling/opinion.
also you are making it sound like this is a recent change. Nomad has been its own map since 2000.

but this is exactly the point you are missing: a Nomad start doesnt change much. Nomad plays more like mediterranean/scandinavia than it does like Land Nomad or Steppe etc.

you are asking for misunderstandings then. i suggest calling them nomadic maps, maps with nomadic starts, nomad-style or something of the like.

what i said is true. none of these are from late 2021, and that is what I remember reading when i was writing the comment. if you write stuff that’s wrong, then see the data contradicts you and edit your previous comments, you can’t expect people to go all the way back to re-read checking if you corrected yourself.

I didnt say they are irrelevant. What I was saying is that your entire argument relies on old data, which undermines it, since you are ignoring the more recent data. The suspicion is that you are picking the older data because it suits your point of view.
A neutral take-away from this could be something like this: over time fewer people are voting, Nomad is getting more popular, while other maps with Nomadic starts seem to stay about the same.

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in the end this entire discussion boils down to one question: what’s the purpose of the RM queue?
I think we can agree that we want the following:
-map diversity
-evenly matched opponents

I think Nomad (and other nomadic starts) adds to map diversity.
in a pool that can contain Arabia, Arena and Islands, i dont think Nomad will impact the fairness of match-making. Like with all other maps in the pool, if one doesnt ban them one should perpare for them

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